Defending Your Made Hands!

So - a little bit before my enlistment I had an INCREDIBLE session - not so much as in how much money I made, but in how much I learned from the session. I decided I would post a few of the hands here - as some of the points I've learned have come up several times in my poker career, and as I continue to learn from them, I have continued to think about them and realised better ways to play them. All commentary and questions are welcome.

Hand #1 - Top Set vs FD
2/3 NL Live Cash game at The Bike, Effective stacks $600.
Our villain is UTG+1 and has been playing table captain. He raises to $24, action folded to me. Villain has been doing tremendous amounts of work to keep the table loose, mostly by pricing flops high when he has a hand he wants to play, and outstacks me considerably. I wake up with KhKs. I call. Based on my read on villain, he will C-Bet 90% of flops, and I can raise any flop that has no ace. Folded around to blinds, BB calls.

Pot: ~75.
Flop: Kc7h3h.
Villain C-Bets here, as intended. Throws ~$60 into the pot. I figure him for a Nut FD. I decide I will call here, knowing my hand is good provided no H comes on turn. BB folds.

Pot: ~200
Turn: Ad
Good. If villain has AhXh, he just improved, this is what I want. Villain nthrows ~$120 into pot. Watch for the giant mistake here, it is HUGE. I call.

Pot: ~440
River: 8h
Villain goes all-in. Here comes giant mistake #2. I call. Villain has Ah9h, and I'm an idiot.

Analasys - a raise on the flop and a shove on the turn would have been good. A call on the flop and a shove on the turn would have been good. Notice here how I have a monster of a hand, and like a retard, I let him get made, without forcing him to fold at any street. Short of the board pairing another A, I have NO CHANCE to force my villain to get his money in bad. I had a solid read on the villain (nut FD), and let him get there without so much as a raise on any street to let him know he was beat - however you bet your ass when the A came and I still called him, he knew I had a monster.

Correction to my play - If I am going to let my villain have a turn, that's all well and good. It gives him less EV for my shove on the turn because instead of being ~36% to win he is only ~18% to win. Stack sizes come into play when making the decision of which street to shove. And while you're ahead on the flop against a FD, keep in mind some players will call an all-in bet with two streets to come, knowing they have two shots at their flush. Letting my villain have a turn (especially when he's betting most turns with this hand) isn't a terrible idea, given my position, if a H comes, I must adjust my play knowing I'm drawing to a full house (if my read is correct) and will be folding most rivers. Bottom line - I need to shove (or at least raise flop, then shove) before my villain gets made. If he wants to get his money in 18% to win, that's fine. But I let him get his money in with the nuts, which is a HUGE leak.

In a similar hand, online recently -
I have AQo, flop comes AQ7, two suited. I put villain on a draw when he check/calls my C-Bet on the flop. The turn comes a 2, no flush - I bet the pot. River comes a 3, no flush, I bet 2/3 pot, villain shoves for a small amount over. I call. Villain exposes 4c5c, for a busted flush draw that rivered the nut straight.

I should have shoved this turn. This is essentially the same hand as previously. I knew I was being drawn on, and I knew I was ahead on the flop. The correct play here is to rule out your villain's implied odds and make him get all his money in bad. While my villain wasn't getting pot odds to call my pot sized bet on the turn, he was getting implied odds when I let him stack off against me with a wheel to my 2pr.

I recently posted about AQ flopping TpTk in another thread. This exact same hand happened twice in a couple of orbits, but here's how I played it wrong.

Dealt to me: AQo. I raise to $25 at the loosened up 2/3 NL Table at the Bike. I get 4x calls.

Pot = $125.
Flop = Qs8d4c.
PERFECT! I have top pair, top kicker, the pot is big. Action is checked to me somewhere around LP. Watch for the mistake. I bet $40. See it? I bet one third the pot, with top pair top kicker. Villain from hand 1 says "What was that, a feeler bet? You're going to get drawn on, dude." Called around. Turn comes 9h. Guy in seat 9 looks excited, and eagerly shoves.

Folded around. He exposes JT for his made gutshot straight.

These mistakes have saved me lots since I've made them. Hopefully by sharing this information, I have prevented the esteemed CC members with a little insight as how to not play these hands. Or at least open up a box for them to think about when they find themselves in a position.

Bottom line - I went from up $600 to down $1400 to even in one 36 hour session. Fatigue wasn't an issue, at all. I just sat and played cards for a day and a half, and learned. That's all I was doing. Now, were I a much smarter man, I would have sat, played cards, and earned.

Feel free to take this mistakes as lessons learned, and discuss them with me if you so choose.

But by all means - DEFEND YOUR MADE HANDS WITH POT RELEVANT BETS!!

Cash games tend to reward people who draw. Do not reward people who draw against you!

Ok. I'm tired.

WG

I like this lots Weregoat. Make people pay for their draws basically!!

Good post, WG.

yea i realized i tend to be scared to bluff at some pots nd usually turns out they have garbage so i miss my chance. good post tho

Good post WG. I can't tell you how many times I've seen players lose their stack after letting their opponents get there. People see it on tv-- the unsuspecting villain bluffs into the hero's trap, getting knocked out of the tournament-- and they want to emulate that. Little do they know what a sin it is when it's not done correctly.

That said, we shouldn't just shove whenever we think that our opponent is on a draw (which I know isn't what you're saying, but some people may interpret it that way). Dave Sklansky talks in his books about profiting from our opponent's mistakes-- if we shove to deny our opponents the chance to suck out, we are forcing our opponents to make mistakes. Instead, we should bet an amount that will allow our opponent to make a mistake without realizing it, e.g. calling with incorrect odds. So, your suggested line of raising this flop and then maybe shoving the turn is a very good plan, because your all-in bet will probably be pot sized, which may seem reasonable to the villain for him to call, although it is clearly -EV.

Very valuable info, thanks for sharing it with the community here!

On the same note, don't call pre-flop when you should be raising!

The other day, I was in a tournament and made it to the final table. We were down to around 5-6 players and I was in the BB. I had just taken out the player to my right, so there was no small blind.

It was folded over to the button who just called the BB. I had 72o!!!! If he would've farted I would've folded! But he called and the flop came T72 rainbow. I had no clue what he had called with, so I just stuck a half pot bet in there and he shoved and turned over AQs. My 72o held up and he was knocked out.

I was subjected to the obligatory "FullTilt Special" and "He with the most chips wins every hand". All I said back to him was "If you would've raised at least a min raise, I would've folded".

So don't do this! I can't stress that enough.

vn post wg!

Thanks for the comments guys - I definitely saw this session (in it's entirety of 36 hours -) as a learning experience. The fact that I broke even at the end of it just goes to show how how much was truly learned.

Figured I'd share with you guys some of my errors - and not just my amazing plays that get sucked out on - which may be my next post - if I can come up with a way to make an educative point about it, not just a waaah waaaah waaaah I'm running bad post -

I'm glad you guys like this one though. I definitely think about that session (and these hands) often enough...

And I'll think about more posts like this one... Like the one I'm going to do right now.

WG

I had a hand where I thought I was defending, but it turns out the other hand had the made hand.

I had 67os on BB. 4 limpers to me, I check. Flop is 467, all diamonds. I am first to act and lead out with a pot size bet. 2 folds, 2 calls. Turn is 10s... did someone hit a straight? I decide to throw a 1/2 pot size bet. A big reraise here and I would have to fold probably. Two calls. I would have checked the river, except the river is another 6, giving me a FH. I push it all in. Surprisingly, both call and I tripled up!

One had Jd9d, the other 64, a smaller FH.

The guy with the flush could have won it with a big reraise, but he decided to slow play it and got burned.

Thats the main problem of slow playing!
You will loose very much if your opponent makes his hand.....
Just RAISE!!!

another guy tried to be cute with his K7 on a board of KK10 and gave me a freebie on the flop, and I hit my gutshot straight on the turn.

Ace high straight vs. trip kings. Unfortunately he had played it so softly that I didn't shove. Simply value betting a little less than the pot on the river.

I like the fact that you posted how you screwed up, analysed the hand, then showed what you should've done. Good job.