Considering making a living from Poker

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TheLulham

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There is a lot from skimming poker threads on this topic of experienced players telling aspiring Poker Professionals don't try and become a professional, its too difficult, pursue it alongside a part-time job / education. Or quit dreams like this entirely.

I totally agree with not putting all your eggs in one basket financially but, I solidly believe that to have any chance of making it in Poker you must completely and utterly immerse yourself in it - live, sleep, breath it. Play, read books, review hands, watch tutorials, discuss with other players for umpteen hours a week. 60 hour weeks.

I am in my early twenties I graduated from university, studying linguistics. I am at a crossroads in my life where I am looking for a new career. I have a strong interest with accumulating a large amount of money over the space of several years in order to be decently wealthy ( a few hundred thousand) and capable of buying property etc.

I have not fully researched career options but, with most careers and working for an employer involves many many years of hard work. Which to enjoy the lifestyle I would like you will have to wait until you are old. I'm not being ageist but, I want to start enjoying that lifestyle now while I am a young man.

I have a belief about Poker. With 'x' level of commitment and 'x' level of hard work and 'x' level of hours experience and 'x' level of understanding and knowledge any reasonably intelligent individual can is capable of making a good living from poker. Always wondered about the well stated fact that 1/1000 make a living from poker. Did they factor in the thousands of 'problem gamblers' that play. The thousands of recreational players. The thousands who play for years without regularly or doing activities at all like reading poker books, posting their hands and use software / player notes. And probably most importantly of all the thousands who get told that making a profession from poker is a unrealistic pipe dream ( this factor in particular makes it virtually impossible to acquire the skill-sets required to be a success. As these skill-sets can ONLY be achieved by thousands of hours worth of practice(grinding and grinding. learning and learning and learning some more)

Isn't the basic premise of making money that you beat players less skilful than you are so, what is to stop you using poker software to only target players that you categorically know have a lesser skill level or a drastically lesser skill level - I'm a firm believer that acquiring the necessary skill-sets at any of the limits is achievable. I also believe that the edge at the higher skill levels depends a lot on how hard somebody is working i.e. how many hours they are putting in compared to another. Somebody putting 60 hours a week at a given limit/variation of poker will have a greater advantage over somebody even possibly with (better game understanding) who down to playing twice a week for 3 hours.

I also at least recognise the facets and fundamentals that success in this game is built on. i.e. BRM, table-selection, player-selection etc etc

In summary, I have a view that mastering poker is a realistic objective - and is not the 1-1000 players make it (1 in 1000 make it because most people are lazy and ill-disciplined and an extremely low percentile actually play it full-time anyway.) On a surface level, I think there are enough legitimate ways to gain a 'poker-edge' such as : hours of practice over another person, table selection targeting weaker skill-levels, Poker software, poker psychology

I totally respect the rationale of you guys telling starry eyed people not to pursue it as it has the potential to have adverse consequences on people's lives. I totally respect that!

I am 100% committed and willing to put the hours and hard-work in required to succeed. . Based on my post do you think it is worth taking the plunge and going for it full-bloodedly????

Would a good contingency plan be see what happens after 3 months and re-evaluate if it does not work out or show any real potential?

I'd like to hear from people who have actually been successful and know what it takes. This is important these are the only people who are qualified to say


My intention is to focus on cash due to the fluctuations of tournament play.

[Poker background: played for 2 years recreationally, understand all the ABCs of poker. Mostly play tournaments MTT and SNG at low stakes under 20$. At a recreational level I have reached many final tables from fields between 300/800 I am fully aware this does not prove anything about my skill just mentioning to give you a rough picture of my poker experience]
 
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WiZZiM

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not really qualified, but i played for around a year part time to suppliment income, don't think there are many members here who have played for a living. i got to the stage around black friday playing the $16 SNGs. the reason i wasn't successful was because i couldn't motivate myself to play enough games, i put plenty into study, but loading games became too much of a mental hurdle(sounds stupid i know.)

you pretty much have it spot on, hard work on and away from the tables gives you the edge. you should be constantly learning this game, because it's constantly changing.

the only thing i can say is that all these things mentioned above are much, MUCH harder to do when you are on a 100 buyin downswing. The luck factor is always present, and it can corrode the confidence of any player. confidence and conviction is your play is very necessary.

you seem to have a good plan and i'd definitely say give it a go, 3 months probably isn't a long enough time though, if you only know the ABC's now, it's going to take you a while to not only master the basics, but form your own game plan and actually have enough time to get experience at the tables. all of this means you are probably going to struggle taking up cash for the first time.

The other issue is bankroll. make sure you are setup with a bankroll, but also other money for you to live off. having a bankroll plan is very important, especially if you plan on living off your bankroll.

hope this helps, gl
 
dd_decker

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You seem as though you've thought this through pretty well. Just be prepared for the bad streaks...Every top pro has a story of how they "lost it all". Have to be able to withstand the downs and manage the ups. Good luck! :fight:
 
stately7

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I would say give it a go ONLY if you can play cash games with the appropriate bankroll (ideal is 25 buy ins. actually perhaps that is minimum). For me anyway, it's the only way to not care much and carry on playing well when those inevitable 2 outers lose you the hand. Are you thinking live / online or both?

Sorry, I'm not playing professionally or full time, though I have been building a decent bankroll and am increasing my hours at live NL200 outside of work (freelance copywriter).
 
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terryg642

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considering making a living

I'm probably the worst poker player on this forum but,I'm considerable older than you .If you immerse yourself in anything you have a high probability of being successful but,why not go in to a field like computer programming were your almost guaranteed success.
 
DrazaFFT

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Smart man once said: If you have a goal in your life let every decision and action in your life be influenced by that goal;*

Who am i kidding? i heard it last night in "how i met your mother" :D
But seriously dude, you sound like you have a plan, and you work it out mostly, go for it take a few month trial and see how it goes then review it...

On another note, i dont want to sound rude but are you a winning player? by winning player i mean significantly winning at a given stake for a large amount of hands... all of this doesnt make sense if you are a learning player...
Than i would said find a job and play and learn poker to have a second income, then when you see that having a job is -ev then quit job and play poker full time.

just my 2 cents
Good luck, whatever you decide!

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
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This is dangerous, although its very much possible. You need to chase your dreams, if your heart is telling you that you should do it - go for it. If it is everything you want at this stage in your life you should definitely go for it. I mean everyone is tired of his boss yelling you all the time for no reason. You get sick of it eventually. But when you choose to make your living from Poker, you need to maximise your chances of winning, ie buying useful software, buying books for the tournaments,games youre playing. Read a lot, get some rest .. You need to study all the time. Its not going to be easy but if youre good at it you can make much more money in a month than you would on a regular job. Thing is, on a regular job you cant lose all of your money. If youre working somewhere at the moment you should really think about it, seriously, whether it is worth it to quit your job.
 
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TheLulham

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Thanks very much for the comments. Sorry, to isolate some of you by saying 'those qualified to say'. Some of the most interesting comments came from you.

from the comments, I think it could be better to immerse yourself slowly i.e. play every other hour your not doing a part-time job and then when/if things start to go well you can eventually have a chance of phasing the job out.

I'm also torn by terryg642's why not devote the intense practice to something else which could potentially be more rewarding and more sociable,

My argument is doesn't poker have a great earning potential over many other avenues. Starting a business can go bust, or established power-house companies can make it impossible to compete very profitably. Another argument is that are there actually any other jobs/careers that have the potential to earn a large amount in a short space of time there are not many are there?

With poker its fair and square if your more skilful than enough players and have the betting percentages, BRM you will win!(in the long run)
 
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TheLulham

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Smart man once said: If you have a goal in your life let every decision and action in your life be influenced by that goal;*

Who am i kidding? i heard it last night in "how i met your mother" :D
But seriously dude, you sound like you have a plan, and you work it out mostly, go for it take a few month trial and see how it goes then review it...

On another note, i dont want to sound rude but are you a winning player? by winning player i mean significantly winning at a given stake for a large amount of hands... all of this doesnt make sense if you are a learning player...
Than i would said find a job and play and learn poker to have a second income, then when you see that having a job is -ev then quit job and play poker full time.

just my 2 cents
Good luck, whatever you decide!

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk

As I have played largely as a semi-serious hobby I don't have any revealing statistics that could give you an insight. I also don't have enough experience or ever had the right level of seriousness to really giving anything telling.

Than i would said find a job and play and learn poker to have a second income, then when you see that having a job is -ev then quit job and play poker full time. This is a smart comment thanks, without the second income the pressures of living would build too high
 
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If you really want to do it, go for it. I am a huge believer in following your dreams no matter what they are. Some people may call you crazy, and some people may try to talk you out of it. But who cares, it's your dream and your goal, not theirs.

You are young, and have the time and the money and the freedom (so it seems) to pursue it, so you might as well do it now. You never know when a life changing factor may come in to play (kid, wife, illness, etc.) that can hinder your chance, and you will always be left with "What if...."

Recently I had a huge life goal that pretty much everyone thought was impossible, but I did it. Most of my friends thought I was crazy, a few (the best ones) supported me and didn't judge.

I am super glad I did it, and with that, I will always support anyone 100% in pursuing their dreams. You don't want to not regret doing it in the future, life is too short and full of unfortunate surprises.

:) Best wishes to you man!
 
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You shouldnt just give up on it just because people say its ridicilous. Yes, you can earn a sincere better amount than any part job, but its not even about the money. If you are making the minimum income for a month so what? Atleast youre doing something that you want to do and you have fun doing it. Would you rather get your a** thorn everyday for lets say 200-300 dollars more? I mean being on the computer all the time also has downsides but I would much rather that than carrying bricks all day long ( example given. Dont troll ). So, as I said, if you think you can do it - go for it. You didnt even have to create this thread, its your oppinion and your decisions to make. And even if it fails, it will be never too late to get that part time job again ^^.
You just make sure you do it right. And save some money before you even start doing it, just in case.
 
Arjonius

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You're talking about playing poker as a business, so think of it that way.

What's your business plan? Consider the time and money you'll have to invest. Look at the opportunity but also the obstacles to success. Try to assess the likelihood of success or failure, and not in a binary manner with just those two possibilities. Maybe look at best reasonable case, most likely case and worst reasonable case scenarios. Do you have an exit strategy and/or a Plan B?

And don't forget to consider opportunity costs; e.g. if you spend X years playing poker then decide to switch, how far behind the curve will you be in your new career possibilities?
 
stately7

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You're talking about playing poker as a business, so think of it that way.

What's your business plan? Consider the time and money you'll have to invest. Look at the opportunity but also the obstacles to success. Try to assess the likelihood of success or failure, and not in a binary manner with just those two possibilities. Maybe look at best reasonable case, most likely case and worst reasonable case scenarios. Do you have an exit strategy and/or a Plan B?

And don't forget to consider opportunity costs; e.g. if you spend X years playing poker then decide to switch, how far behind the curve will you be in your new career possibilities?

Mapping out the numbers / forecasting like this and drafting a simple business plan to measure / monitor against - great advice.
 
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I agree that the statistics of how many poker players make money vs. lose money is probably skewed because so many players aren't playing with profit as the motive. They're there to socialize, have fun, etc. Or they think profit is their motive, but they don't put in the time and work.

I got alot of "don't do it" advice before moving to Vegas. Mostly from well-meaning people who couldn't imagine someone could actually make money doing what I do.

I'm not by any means rich at the moment, but am solidly plugging away at my 5 year plan. I work 40 hours in my career, then put in another 40+ hours at the poker tables. I moved to Vegas because I could legally play online, and there's always a live game going - so I have no excuses for not putting in the 40 hours per week on my game.

So, yeah, it's possible - with the right work ethic and mindset.

You might be interested in two books, they were very beneficial to me. Outliers by Malcom Gladwell and Fooled By Randomness by Nassim Taleb. They're not poker books per se, but are very relevant.

Good luck on your journey!
 
R3DRANG3R

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I'm also considering moving to Vegas after graduation to find work and make time to play poker. but thats a year away to sharpen my skills. Not gonna dive into it full time but save enough money and ease into it slow is the plan. GL on whatever you decide!
 
BearPlay

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Mental is a lot of the game, if not most of it, and too many people neglect this. I believe that our attitudes determine our experiences. Ryan Riess (the Beast) is a good example of this. Before last year's wsop, he told everyone confidently.. not arrogantly... that he was going to take it all and it helped put him into the mindset. As others have said, allow for variance, and keep playing, learning, playing, and learning.. but it sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this and you have the right mindset to give it a go. Best of luck to you in your endeavors ;)
 
aa88wildbill

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After reading the novel you wrote, I Gotta ask you? Are you trying to convince us, or yourself? I think already made up your mind what you're gonna do.
 
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TheLulham

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I agree that the statistics of how many poker players make money vs. lose money is probably skewed because so many players aren't playing with profit as the motive. They're there to socialize, have fun, etc. Or they think profit is their motive, but they don't put in the time and work.

Exactly, I find so, often people think up the reasons why they can't succeed. Few have the attitude well if they can do it - I can do it.

Such as there being actual laws / formula to success rather than citing some innate talent bullshit as to why its not even worth holding a hope out for it.

I did post this same thread on the poker forum + 2 and got pretty much an opposite response to this one. See:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...nges/considering-making-living-poker-1412248/

By the way that was my first thread on there.

I noticed how most of the replies don't actually seem to acknowledge anything that I said.
 
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TheLulham

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BearPlay, RiverOfDreamz, aa88wildbill, TheNoobie and others thanks, it is nice to hear some encouragement - if I do decide to go for it. I will post a challenge thread on here and mark my progress all the way!

Its funny I have been reading some books such as "Bounce", and "Outliers" that was the kind of material which made me think that success in anything starting a business / poker was a realistic objective and at least possible however, difficult, possible for anyone to achieve it.

Its not self-help mumbo jumbo either.
 
Arjonius

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Encouragement isn't the same from all possible sources. If you have a number of people encouraging you whose backgrounds include making or having made a decent living from poker, it's pretty different IMO from people encouraging you but none have been through it.

I have no reason to hope you'll fail, but from this thread and the one on 2+2, I don't get the sense that you have a well thought-out plan or even just a realistic evaluation of the obstacles and risks. Without these, I'd guess you're drawing very thin.
 
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TheLulham

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Encouragement isn't the same from all possible sources. If you have a number of people encouraging you whose backgrounds include making or having made a decent living from poker, it's pretty different IMO from people encouraging you but none have been through it.

I have no reason to hope you'll fail, but from this thread and the one on 2+2, I don't get the sense that you have a well thought-out plan or even just a realistic evaluation of the obstacles and risks. Without these, I'd guess you're drawing very thin.

Absolutely, I don't which is why I am trying to get a bit of advice from experienced players.

Your right I don't have a plan - If I did decide to give it a go I would evaluate these things and these posts have helped to identify some of the hurdles.

To be honest I have become bored by the idea of doing it as probably have many others.

I think you must really LOVE to play poker to explore the possibility. As if making money is your primary goal you can never get enough certainty. Its waste to bother trying if you don't LOVE it as your literally going to need to spend HOUR and HOURs and HOURS to find out when people rate your chances at 1/1000 you would have to be clinically insane invest any proper commitment or effort to play poker without loving it and not wishing you were doing something else e.g. socializing.

Life's short I don't want to spend so many hours in not the exactly the greatest social environment if its so impossible and there are so, many obstacles

I think Ivey, and people like that got into Poker as they loved it and it was the passion to play that drove them not the money. If they were moderately successful or break-even they would not care as they love what they are doing.
 
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TheLulham

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If some pros had said.

Its a really realistic objective to make a living if you have the correct gameplan and enough hardwork.

I may have considered it.... But, so far i have heard nothing from them other than the poker mountain is higher than Everest. (perhaps they are keeping extremely shrewd as they don't want successful players out there)
 
rifflemao

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There is a lot from skimming poker threads on this topic of experienced players telling aspiring Poker Professionals don't try and become a professional, its too difficult, pursue it alongside a part-time job / education. Or quit dreams like this entirely.

I recommended following your dream earlier, but I also have a ton of respect for players on the circuit who have full time careers, are running businesses etc, AND are having success in poker. One such player among many is Jeff Fielder.

I forgot about this before, but keep in mind that another opportunity cost of not working a regular job comes from not investing in your 20s. See #1 here regarding compound interest and the advantages of saving early and often.

You can still invest some of your poker winnings of course, but I just wanted to shed some light on the advantages of youth in regard to bankrolling your future with a steady salary.
 
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