can't get anywhere in cash games

Been playing 2NL on FTP and I can't seem to get anywhere. My first 10k hands I was completely new to cash games, yet I still managed to turn a small profit. So I set off on my next 10k hands after learning to play ABC poker and after 3k hands I'm winning 16bb\100 and I'm up like 11$. Then someone sucks out on me and an epic downswing ensues where 11$ turns into 0$.

My stats are like 13.7/9.8 last 8500 hands. Do I just chalk it up to variance and bad luck? Should I play more hands, more tables? I'm just growing extremely frustrated that I can't seem to get anywhere at this level.

Here's a bunch of hands from the epic downswing. So you can stop reading here as you've been warned.


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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (MP1): $2.64 (132 bb)
MP2: $2.22 (111 bb)
MP3: $1.16 (58 bb)
CO: $1.38 (69 bb)
SB: $1.60 (80 bb)
BB: $0.40 (20 bb)
UTG+2: $2.55 (127.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP1 with A♣ A♥
UTG+2 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.06, MP2 calls $0.06, 4 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.21) 2♦ 9♦ 3♠ (3 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.21, Hero calls $0.21, MP2 raises to $1, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $2.58 and is all-in, MP2 calls $1.16 and is all-in

Turn: ($4.74) T♥ (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($4.74) J♠ (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $4.74 pot ($0.31 rake)
Hero showed A♣ A♥ (a pair of Aces) and lost (-$2.22 net)
MP2 showed T♠ T♦ (three of a kind, Tens) and won $4.43 ($2.21 net)

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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (SB): $2 (100 bb)
BB: $0.83 (41.5 bb)
MP1: $3.34 (167 bb)
MP2: $1.50 (75 bb)
MP3: $3.92 (196 bb)
CO: $0.36 (18 bb)
BTN: $2.23 (111.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with Q♠ T♠
2 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, CO folds, BTN calls $0.02, Hero completes, BB checks

Flop: ($0.08) Q♦ 4♦ T♥ (4 players)
Hero bets $0.08, BB raises to $0.32, MP3 folds, BTN folds, Hero raises to $1.98 and is all-in, BB calls $0.49 and is all-in

Turn: ($1.70) 9♦ (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($1.70) 2♥ (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $1.70 pot ($0.11 rake)
Hero showed Q♠ T♠ (two pairs, Queens and Tens) and lost (-$0.83 net)
BB showed K♣ J♣ (a straight, Nine to King) and won $1.59 ($0.76 net)

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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $1.05 (52.5 bb)
BB: $0.57 (28.5 bb)
UTG+1: $2 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $2.58 (129 bb)
MP1: $1.97 (98.5 bb)
MP2: $0.80 (40 bb)
MP3: $0.70 (35 bb)
CO: $2.27 (113.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $4.20 (210 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K♥ K♠
UTG+1 calls $0.02, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.08, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.24, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.22, MP1 calls $0.16

Flop: ($0.75) 4♥ 8♥ J♦ (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40, MP1 folds

Turn: ($1.55) K♦ (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.55, UTG+1 calls $1.36 and is all-in

River: ($4.27) 6♥ (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $4.27 pot ($0.28 rake)
Hero showed K♥ K♠ (three of a kind, Kings) and lost (-$2 net)
UTG+1 showed A♥ Q♥ (a flush, Ace high) and won $3.99 ($1.99 net)

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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $0.73 (36.5 bb)
BTN: $2.74 (137 bb)
SB: $3.61 (180.5 bb)
BB: $2.79 (139.5 bb)
UTG+1: $2.18 (109 bb)
UTG+2: $0.45 (22.5 bb)
MP1: $0.87 (43.5 bb)
MP2: $0.45 (22.5 bb)
Hero (MP3): $4.06 (203 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP3 with 3♦ 3♥
UTG+1 calls $0.02, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, SB calls $0.05, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.20) 9♣ 9♦ 3♣ (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.18, SB calls $0.18, UTG+1 raises to $0.64, Hero raises to $4 and is all-in, SB calls $3.37 and is all-in, UTG+1 folds

Turn: ($7.94) 2♠ (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($7.94) 2♦ (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $7.94 pot ($0.52 rake)
Hero showed 3♦ 3♥ (a full house, Threes full of Nines) and lost (-$3.61 net)
SB showed T♦ 9♠ (a full house, Nines full of Twos) and won $7.42 ($3.81 net)

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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $3.88 (194 bb)
Hero (BTN): $2 (100 bb)
SB: $2 (100 bb)
BB: $0.54 (27 bb)
MP1: $2.54 (127 bb)
MP2: $0.87 (43.5 bb)
MP3: $2 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with 5♠ A♠
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, SB folds, BB raises to $0.54 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.48

Flop: ($1.09) Q♦ T♣ 9♦ (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($1.09) 7♣ (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($1.09) 4♦ (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $1.09 pot ($0.07 rake)
BB showed 2♠ 9♠ (a pair of Nines) and won $1.02 ($0.48 net)
Hero showed 5♠ A♠ (high card Ace) and lost (-$0.54 net)

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HAND #1
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Full Tilt, $0.01/$0.02 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $1.20 (60 bb)
BTN: $3.96 (198 bb)
SB: $2.01 (100.5 bb)
BB: $0.63 (31.5 bb)
UTG+1: $2.05 (102.5 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $2 (100 bb)
MP1: $2.48 (124 bb)
MP2: $0.78 (39 bb)
MP3: $0.52 (26 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+2 with K♦ K♠
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.06, MP3 folds, CO raises to $1.20 and is all-in, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.14, MP2 calls $0.72 and is all-in

Flop: ($3.21) 9♦ J♣ A♠ (3 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: ($3.21) 6♥ (3 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($3.21) 8♣ (3 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $3.21 pot ($0.21 rake)
CO showed Q♠ Q♥ (a pair of Queens) and lost (-$1.20 net)
Hero showed K♦ K♠ (a pair of Kings) and won $0.78 (-$0.42 net)
MP2 showed J♦ J♠ (three of a kind, Jacks) and won $2.22 ($1.44 net)

Well from the hands you've shown, you're biggest problem is the hand where you have A5s. Raising on the button to 3X the bb is fine....calling an additional all-in of 4+pot size bet is BAD. That looks like serious tilt.

All the other hands are just plain bad beats or a bit unlucky (the AQh isn't folding and neither is the KJ with the open ender). Trying to get help on showing those hands are useless. Hands like that sting for sure, but what are you doing with KJo with an early raiser and a caller and your in the bb? How about if you have 67o, or Axo in the same suituation? THOSE hands are what will make you a winning player in the long run.

Showing aces cracked and getting stacked won't help any of us plug any holes you have. Sure there are ways you can clean up those hands a bit and try and minimize the loss, but you are going to lose some of those hands and it sucks. Poker is a game of small margins and winning in the long run. Over 10K hands really isn't much of a sample. Variance still plays too big a roll.

IMO, playing very tight and bluffing VERY little at these ultra micro stakes is key. And yes, AA and KK will lose big pots many times. But, 67s with position will win for you as well.

Cheers

Well that could happen to just about anyone, I know that happens to me very often. You should probably stick to just playing SNG's, well GL in your cash table play.

A lot of these hands are just bad beats. I have never played 2NL but I would image it is can be very frustrating.

Stopped reading after the first few hands - you got it in as a substantial favorite each time, so you played them correctly. When reviewing your hands, if you determine that you're a substantial favorite against the range of hands Villain's likely to be holding (i.e., even if you're behind his actual hand, if you're ahead of his most likely holdings), you're playing good poker.

5bi swings are not uncommon for someone who's playing good poker - this is why brm recommendations always start at 20bi's on the low end. It's not even necessarily variance - keep in mind that being a 60/40 favorite means that you're going to lose 40% of the time on a specific hand. Over 100 iterations, though, get it all in as a 60/40 favorite and you'll be a very happy camper.

I disagree, for the pure fact of having played a lot of 2NL on FTP lately and doing rather well (and having also a major downswing, very similar to OPs. A lot of shortdonkers will shove over a ridiculously wide range, including Kx, Qx some cases ATC, if coolnout has seen this person do this, trust me it's an ok call at this level with a read.

I'd recommend pursuing with 2NL, if you can stick with playing for burger stakes and not succumbing to tilt your bb/100 should return to where it ought to be, best of luck!

Some sick beats there but stick with it. The low stakes cause a lot of people to lose their cool and they go on tilt. Just keep playing ABC poker at this level and you will profit in the long run.

ight bud just got done reading ur OP.

u got it in good on every hand bro and still came out behind at the end..call it variance, a bad beat or call it rigged this is all bound to happen bud. exactly why its so important to make sure u follow proper BRM. i took some bad beats today at 10NL ill post a couple to maybe make u feel better.

Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP2: $19.62 (196.2 bb)
MP3: $12.77 (127.7 bb)
CO: $15.13 (151.3 bb)
BTN: $7.21 (72.1 bb)
SB: $9.35 (93.5 bb)
BB: $27.09 (270.9 bb)
UTG+1: $10 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $3.85 (38.5 bb)
Hero (MP1): $19.70 (197 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP1 with K K
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, MP2 raises to $0.50, 5 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, MP2 calls $2

Flop: ($5.15) T 2 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $5.15, MP2 raises to $17.12 and is all-in, Hero calls $11.97

Turn: ($39.39) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($39.39) 3 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results:
Spoiler:
$39.39 pot ($2 rake)
MP2 showed T T (three of a kind, Tens) and won $37.39 ($17.77 net)
Hero showed K K (a pair of Kings) and lost (-$19.62 net)

Alright. Thanks for all the advice. Just extremely frustrating to play 20,000 hands of 2NL and end up only being an extremely small winner. It could be worse I could be losing I guess. I just don't wanna play 2NL for life. Also after that many hands it just leaves me scratching my head like I'm doing something inherently wrong. I'll keep plugging along. 10K moooooore. UGH.

Ive played 8k hands at 2NL 6 max and am down 20bi...sucks. I just keep running into flushes when I have sets or the nuts straights when I have second nuts.

Its frustrating thats for sure. I then tilted and went to play 10nl rush and lost 1 bi KK < AA and learnt my lesson.

Now I gotta recover an extra 5bi from that tilt on top of the other 20 to get back to where I started in November. The rake doesnt help either when you dont have rake back (and neither does trying to play more tables to get my deposit bonus)

But thats poker hey.

The only thing I have going for me is that I have rakeback. Actually made more in rakeback after that downswing then at the tables. I was playing a couple hours every day. But, if left me feeling like the more I play the more something bad is gonna happen. So been getting in and getting out lately.

Thats how I have been feeling as well. Tried to play for at least an hour a day this month, but losing that many buy-ins doesnt feel that great. Ive also been trying to learn as much as I can but now feel quiet overwhelmed that I think im neglecting the basics.

But I told my self im going to learn poker and get to 100NL by next year so I'm going to grind it out and hopefully get out of 2NL before the middle of the year!

Just a suggestion, not basing this on anything stated in this thread - we're all going to take our share of coolers and bad beats in large pots.

You're using PT3 or HEM I think? Review your play in small (< 20 bb's) and medium pots. (30-60 bb's). imo we tend to think too much about the big pots and not enough about the small and medium pots.

As an example, I tend to spew a bit by two barreling fish calling stations oop w air, this is a leak that's easy to see by looking at my smaller and medium pots. This (the second barrel) is probably costing me as much over my last 20k hands as a few bad beat 100bb pots (i.e., it's probably cost me a few bi's).

it was a good day. 5 buy-ins below ev tho.

Nice to see things turned out ok, that's a sick line given the short number of hands, all 2NL right?

Hope things carry on as they are, and a bit closer to EV!

Ya, all 2NL. Just happened to win some nice pots when I was deepstacked the past two days. Hopefully it keeps up, tho nothing really surprises me anymore. Would definitely be nice to get a chance to move up.

slow playing aces can be dangerous sometimes, usually i wont let people chase if there are draws but in ur case the guy just hit trips so its hard to prevent especially when he has top pair on the flop or so he thinks

Deepstacked at 2NL? Would that mean having like $3-$4 on the table? Sorry. Anyway, I've never played at the micro-micros but I would imagine they are very frustrating for a serious poker player. I would really just play ABC poker, and that's often more or less what I'll do at 25-50NL and it works fine. I'll occasionally bluff, I'll c-bet, but by and large just betting your good hands strong and knowing when you're beat seems to be a winning strategy at the lower levels. I really wouldn't mix it up at the low-low stakes and I mix it up a little at the stakes I'm at even though I sometimes don't need to.

This is good advice.

But SPCotter, calling an all in 4X pot with A5o is BAD everyday of the week. Just because you are playing against terrible players does NOT mean you have to act like them. A5o is a horrible CALLING hand. ick.

But with a read?! I wouldn't advocate it normally, this is 2NL!

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.143% 53.24% 02.91% 2596195164 141714972.00 { A5s }
Hand 1: 43.857% 40.95% 02.91% 1997016684 141714972.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+ }


If I feel I have an edge, however small, I'll take it. These villains don't typically do postflop play

It's not an edge, he's more likely to shove AA than K2o.

The 56/43 isn't accurate.

How so? There are more combinations of K2o than AA in the deck . (jk)

Serious note, there are plenty of short stackers in 2NL that will shove nearly ATC (villain in this hand shoved 92s, this is not completely unheard of at this level!), if I have physically seen a shortdonker shove any suited cards, Qx, Kx etc. with a high 3bet% I may consider calling a shove with A5s (there is also the money invested already to consider, as small as it is). Don't think I can really contribute any more on this topic without derailing it completely.

This. I had a read and made the call. Was ahead like 65/35 and lost. Only included the hand cuz I was just pulling losing hands from that downswing. FTP doesn't save observed hands anymore so I can't say EXACTLY what lead up to it. Just his stats were 27/20 after 15 hands. I'm not calling all-ins with a5s, but I just felt it was right in this particular situation.

What I 'try' to do is,.. just consider the time put in as part of the journey. Placing any focus of time on when you might feel injustice has been done to you is a waste of time & can only lead one to get into the wrong headspace (at least this is what my experience has been.... ie. taking screenshots of badbeats & saving hand histories.... you know you've gotten it in good... shit happens... you know you want them to be making the terrible calls/shoves etc. especially when they're miles behind. Unfortuantely (but also fortunately), poker isn't 'chess'... & if the donks weren't getting lucky on occassion I believe many of them would just give up after awhile and be on their way (although some folks do seem addicted to losing)).
Sure it blows to put in 20K hands and not be up much. Maybe look at the time spent as just part of the path involved with becoming a good poker player, constantly working on your game in an effort to move towards bigger goals down the road. I mean all the time put in is a good thing... no? Maybe also look at the badbeats as an oppurtunity to work on poker mindset (as lame as that might sound).... cuz there's plenty more to come. At least on the cash tables your tourney life isn't over from a donking & if villain/donk stays on the table deeper stacked.... could be a good thing.

2NL is bingo>the skill factor is less and the luck factor is thru the roof. they will chase anything. and dont u dare bluff. and i hear lots of ppl say this LEVEL IS EASY TO BEAT but these players DONT reguarly play at this level.
true ABC poker is good but you got to add your own twist to it.

Im down 20BI at 2NL over 1 1/2 months and 11k hands

So many people playing at the higher levels state all you need is TPTK at 2NL and you can stackem. Well I can clearly state this is not true. Even a set 50% of the time is not enough to stack off with. I constantly run into flush over sets, flush over straights, quads over full house. It is essentially BINGO.

I think one of my problems may be not giving these players enough credit due to their previous showdowns. But its hard to do when most have no consistent hands.

My new approach to get back to break even+ is from now on just supernit <10/10 stats. Only way I can foresee beating this level. I hardly ever bluff with air, I occasionally semi-bluff my draws but people call down anything.

Hopefully I can achieve this over the next 20k hands and move up to 5NL where I hear its slightly better, but not my much.(I have enough BR on PS for 5NL, but im trying to grind out my FT deposit bonus which is taking an eternity at these stakes)

/end of rant

Ah that was good to get off my chest. Back to grinding now

The downswing just killed my confidence. Since I was really new to cash games I guess I shouldn't really count my first 10k hands. It wasn't til my next 10k that I felt like I had an idea what I was doing. Then to play almost 10k and have little to show for it just left me scratching my head. I guess it was just really bad variance. 5 buy-ins seems huge at this level. Tho I guess it really isn't as someone said. Won it all back in the last few days and the upswing continues knock wood.

No offense, but thinking like this:
is EXACLTY why poker is profitable. At any level.

marknz88 if your online poker bankroll can afford to play 5NL, I would completely skip the 2NL.
I've rarely played 2NL ever but have played some 5NL on both Stars & Fulltilt (only 6max on both sites). My observations - the play on Fulltilt at 6max-5NL has far, far better play then 6max-5NL on Pokerstars (alot more 3-bet pots preflop, and usually only headsup on most flops that are seen). Fullring has a ton more donks (maybe comparable on both sites... idk.. I don't play it at super micro level on those sites). Just a suggestion... but if you want to invest some time in the super micros I think you'd be far better off playing 6max-5NL on Fulltilt (&/or maybe 10NL FullRing on either of the sites... again I'm not sure about the play on Pokerstars aside from knowing it's extremely bad). {yes we want bad players on the tables... a couple will do though on a 6max table... not 5 of them!!!} I seriously think you'll have a better go if you get away from 2NL asap.

I personally think that most of the regular players at this level are playing too nitty. They are only getting in there with premium hands and when you are playing against them you know that if you have something marginal, say suited connectors or small pocket pairs you can probably get them to stack off with their overpair when you have hit the flop with a set.

all you can do is play your cards right...if the cards beat you then the cards just beat you. I play a 2 5 nl game at my local casino and for the last few months ive been getting my butt whooped at the table. Not because I have been playing bad, actually ive been playing the best poker of my life. The cards have been taking a dump all over me for the last few months, but that doesnt mean that ive been playing bad poker, get your money in good and thats all you can really ask for in poker, if someone draws out on you its just cause the gods are not looking out for you at this particular time. Keep up playing like you are and in the long run you will be a winner, i promise. see you at the tables. peace

I know how you feel. It's hard to get over getting beat consistently when the probability says you should win most of the time. Maybe try Pokerstars instead of FT. I remember when I played at FT I was driven nuts by the amount of flush draws that would hit. The odds on PS are fairer.

I built up about $40 in profit at microstakes and in 10 days I lost $25-$30 of it in less than 2000 hands (I tried to forget and stopped keeping track so I am not sure exactly how much I lost). It was the worst run in length and magnitude I"ve ever had. Whenever I made a big hand, the other guy either had an even bigger hand or would hit a straight or flush on the river. But I exacerbated the mistake by keep playing, only to suffer more bad beats or make a dumb move.

It got to a point where I was felt like I was behind on every flop.

The last couple of days I won back about $11. Still a very long way to go back to where I was at my peak, but I think having a couple of decent days will get my confidence back.

So the key is to take some time off if you find that it really bugs you. I myself have trouble doing that. I found that when I had free time, I was on PS trying to win back my losses. I think once you get over your rough patch and have a few winning sessions in a row, you'll get back to norm.

heres a example of what im talking about
IPoker Network $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 509619
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

EvgenM (BTN): $4.72
vexinho123 (SB): $4.25
EaglesAnels (BB): $10.91
Hero (UTG): $8.76
mcoque (MP): $5.56
hellshammer (CO): $10.00

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with A A
Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, hellshammer raises to $0.55, 1 fold, vexinho123 calls $0.50, EaglesAnels calls $0.45, Hero raises to $2.20, 1 fold, vexinho123 calls $1.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.50) K 8 Q (2 players)
vexinho123 checks, Hero bets $2.75, vexinho123 calls $2.05 all in

Turn: ($10.30) A (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($10.30) T (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $10.30
vexinho123 shows J T
vexinho123 wins $8.96
Hero wins $0.70
(Rake: $0.64)

Why you calling a re raise with that> and these rake increases always hit this shit. And he couldnt even use i thought it was suited excuse???

results orientated much????
so he won this one, it doesnt matter, you want hime calling this PF raise and flop bet all day, he's gonna lose this hand more than he wins, so long-term you're a winner.

For the last 3 months Ive been learning cash, after being a mtt/sng player for 3 years, Ive got about 15000 hands at 2nl-25nl, the bulk of my hands at 5nl/10nl. The standard of play is pretty horrendous at these levels, people chasing with draws without pot odds, people calling all the way with bottom pair, etc. I play standard ABC poker to start with at each table, betting hard with premium hands, when the flop looks safe, etc, and if I get any resistance, I know Im probably beat and shut down.
IMO you can identify when people are chasing draws to straights/flushes, the bet tends to be bigger when they get their completing card, and they take longer to bet, as they are thinking about it more.
I have up and down sessions, but overall I'm doing ok, 8BB/100 over 14000 hands.
Someone said at CC(sorry I forget who) when I first started cash, is that at micro, if the fish bet like they have it, then that means they normally have it, and this rings true 95%+ of the time. There are some bluffs, I know, as I do them and get away with them frequently, but at those levels ABC poker is a winning proposition.
As for the OP's hands, they are all standard(excluding the A5 play), as long as you get it in ahead, that's all anyone of us can hope for.

i play 1c/2c without a program to help me, like holdem manager, dont even have the program, in the long run, 100k hands, i have a 6 BB/100 just abc poker, some sessions i will lose, but there is always another day, and when the day starts of bad, lets say 300-400 hands and i cant show a profit, i stop, take a break, watch a movie, come back later or tomorow. if i continue playing while losing i just lose more. so when the day dosent feel right, just stop.