Calling Because of the Price?

So exactly when do we Draw a line? Exactly what hands do we draw the line at?

I'm always calling because of the price irregardless of my hand and this is an Issue for me because I'm just burning Chips and I use those chips for better things later on....




PokerStars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button (t4700)
SB (t8009)
Hero (BB) (t11341)
UTG (t33540)
UTG+1 (t11701)
MP1 (t15572)
MP2 (t8212)
MP3 (t36070)
CO (t42001)

Hero's M: 2.95

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, 10
6 folds, Button bets t4540 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero?

Should We not Call because It's so Cheap? Or exactly what range should we be calling with?

If you want to know about the player, I have no clue, about him because I just arrived at the table and been there for about 5 or so hands

Do not. This is not cheap. QT is a crap hand to be calling a shove with. Wait for a better spot to shove yourself or wait for a better hand

lol at folding here ever

in the middle:

~1400 from antes
800 sb
1600 bb
4500 shove
= ~8.3k

we already have 1.6k in the middle so we have to call 2.9k

assuming he shoves broadway + ace atc is a profitable call. calling QTo here adds 60% to your stack each time you call in the long run

even if he only shoves the top 5% of hands it's still a profitable call

assuming he shoves broadway + aces again, you'd have to call 5.5k+ to make this an unprofitable call with QTo

As per Pascal - call with any 2 without giving it a nano-second's thought.

P you the Shit, did all that math...I was asking myself how are they gonna Figure this out without all the Numbers....Ya your right it was only 2.9K to call to win close to 8.4K, that's why I called but I mean these are killing me also becasue, I noticed I'm calling because Of the Price every time....I mean Literally every time...10/9o+Suited 58s+58o so Exactly when should I draw the line, or with exactly what hands should I start drawing the line with, and when should I start drawing it?

Lets assume this exact hand but where only getting 2:1 rather then more then 2.5:1 so exactly should I fold because it's 2:1 and call more because it's closer to 3:1?

^^^^^This is what I'm really trying to ask...Exactly at what price should I be willing to fold more hands pre-say 2:1? and Call very light at 3:1? What are your takes on it

Typically(& basically speaking) (not this particular hand per se), you want to calculate the odds you're getting & then the equity your hand has vs. villain's range.
It's pretty easy to do (hint: us PokerStove for calculating eq)

You're getting 2.85 to 1 (2.4 to1 is a call w atc 'typically')
Even if villain is shoving as tight as 22+, A2s+, K3s+,Q9s+, K4o+ with QTo you'd have 41%eq vs. this range & with the odds you're getting you only need ~26% for it to be +cEV

Really Dumb Question But I really must ask I'm sry....Ok So I understand about the whole 41%EQ area, because you must be Calculating Villain at a 25% Shoving Range Correct? Yet I don't understand the 26%+cEV....So I don't understand how your coming up with the 26% figure plz if you care to break it down that would be so Wonderful thank you

Naruto - I'm not sure this hand is good representation for your question. There are some many other factors, not the least of which is you're back is against the wall with such a small M.
Being "priced in" is a two edged sword - but remember, pot odds doesn't mean you have to be stupid. So many people I see throw their money away because they "got priced in". REALLY?!?! You have 38off and have to put your money in cause 5 other people did - 5 other people who all have better hands than you. Sure, your getting 7-1 so by all means go after a pair of eights on the flop. ATC, right? How good does your hand look if everyone flipped their cards over? Would you jump in then?
Oh hell I'm just ranting now - I'm tired.

25% shoving range? idk.. is that what it is? (shoving range I wrote out above, ie. 22+, A2s+, etc. etc... it's written there already... is ~33% I think?)
26% came from the 2.85 to 1 you're getting on your call.

irrelevant example. we are closing the action here, calling 20% of our stack with a ton of dead money in the middle and in the long run you will add 60% to your stack. it's a super profitable spot and folding here is burning money

Issue I see here is whether to fist-pump, or double fist-pump.

It's sort of a 1-1.6 fist-pump spot, double fist-pumping with K9s+/22+.

I would not call ATC, I'd fold some stuff like 94o etc.

Didnt you cash for a big tourny place at some point???

This thread makes me wonder how

I did sometime Ago, I just asked because I need to Touch on Certain Spots....I understand some thing but I don't fully grasp them all, so I need to Ask (Basic Questions)...Yes I did and that was because I ran Hotter then Hell

I won't go as far as ATC, but with QT, you are priced in against a shorty shove. 2900 to get into a fixed pot of 8.3K .....yeah.

I see your concern tho, your M is low, from the blinds I surmise you are approaching the money, and you have no reads on the players. So the pure table dynamics come into play;

-huge stacks are not in this hand,
-button/shorty is in bad shape, and knows he needs to do something, and the opportunity to button shove just presented itself.
-fixed liability with decent cards
-Your M of under 3

Things wouldn't change much if you held QJ, or KT, you either hit or not (lol, remembering an old 50-50 thread). I would probably widen villains range to larger than 25% here, any pocket pair, any Ax, all broadways and any connectors making that shove range well above 35% on the button.

I can see folding here as the ICM issues are weighing heavy at this point, and certainly with a larger starting stack there is no issue at all. So from that POV this becomes a gamble, even tho the odds scream 'call', the ICM issues suggest a more cautious approach, which still might scream 'call'. So a good question to ask yourself at this point is, 'where is the bubble?'

I like the question and the hand used. You have marginally very nice cards, and the dynamics are palpable.

For me, if the bubble has come and gone, its a call. If the bubble is close but has not been broken, I fold.

If the bubble is 20 minutes away, I call.

sorry, but ignore the above

icm issues? balls. this isn't a final table and even if it is it's still a fine call because we are so short compared to the blinds. QT is a very strong hand here.

table dynamics? it doesn't matter how wide he is shoving this is always a profitable call. run the maths yourself and see.

folding into the money because you are close to the bubble and passing up really profitable spots? don't make that mistake. the bubble here is basically irrelevant unless it's a satellite.

ICM? What does that mean btw? That was 1 of my Considerations for showing this hand in-itself being as Short as we were compared to the blinds was it a Call worthy spot....From the Aspect of what we had to gain compared to what we had to lose I felt it was worthy, and Had I folded, I also had to think the next time around would this player do the same thing again, and this time it would've been for our entire stack....What I mean is you know when your short and against Random players, (You don't know how aggressive they are), and Being as we were just new to the table, had I folded this hand I would've been back with 10Kish or so, then the next time around it would've been down to 8k or so If Not less, then he would've (Assuming) Shoved again we'd be in Dire situations (That was my thinking)+ The odds were just so Great in itself that I felt I had to call it....

Just Curious Same situation Yet Horrible cards, do we still call? I mean say for instance 7Qo/62o/59o/Anything of that nature same odds

Well Mr Pascal LeBOT!

Clearly we have different approaches. While I stated the obvious call, there are other considerations, which you don't seem to consider. You seem to see the absolute card odds, and act only on that 'fact'. IMHO, that is an inappropriate use of the info available to any player. Odds are not the facts, probabilities are not facts. They are guidelines we use to influence actions, not dictates towards some action.

As I studied the hand as presented, I came to the realization that a decent % of the time, I fold, right or wrong. Perhaps my mood was wrong, or right. In other cases where I had some sort of read it may be some other reason, but here we have no real reads on the player/s, and have to rely on our savvy, and our experiences.

My logic worked out to be ICM dependent more than anything else. I still call here 2/3 of the time (approximately).

For me, no, no, no, even tho the price seems right. less than 3-1 means I do have a cut off point regarding what hands I will get a look with. Not exactly sure where that point is, but for me, seldom a 4 gapper unsuited. With a huge stack I would think more absolutely. But given the dynamics, nah.....

As noted, this isn't necessarily a great example because of the situation. With a very short stack in the big blind, many players will shove any two, so it's hard not to assume the widest possible range. And then, with your stack being pretty short as well, you have to decide how wide you're going to call. the pot odds are clearly attractive, but that's not the only consideration. Taking into consideration that you'll be paying the SB next hand can influence the value of winning vs losing in a non-numerical way. That said, I'm calling with QT most if not all the time.

what sort of "non-numerical way"? poker is maths...

dj, I read your post and I don't know what you are saying, honestly. you talk about stuff like info you have on players, table dynamics, and then say you have looked at all this to decide that you should call 2/3 of the time. maybe you could explain what you considered to come to this?

My Point Exactly

If poker is math, and you play all odds, you are beatable, you will be playing like a bot. Yes, math plays heavy in poker, but it is not the be all and end all of our decision making prowess. At least it should not be.

I already listed the main ingredients in my logic making;

-huge stacks are not in this hand,
-button/shorty is in bad shape, and knows he needs to do something, and the opportunity to button shove just presented itself.
-fixed liability with decent cards
-Your M of under 3

-add in that next hand we are the SB, and there are serious stack considerations ahead.

Take this example a bit further, and add reads on the players. The whole process might change. Maybe it doesn't change. Or reverse positions, same stacks per player, but for sure you shove on the button (with QTo) into the smaller BB. But in the stated scenario, we are calling, and while I have stated that most of the time, I'm calling this because I have reasonable odds, and am closing the betting, I may not always do it. Then there is the whole tourney situation. It might be that I am not far from average stack and that will affect my decision. I may decide 'damn, I woulda shoved here, but he got there first!' That happens fairly often.

Poker, as has been said over and over, is not so much about the cards, as it is about the players, and position. In this case tho, it is more about the cards. Buttons shove eliminates position, but it offers a fixed bet as compensation.

I don't really know what you want. The situation is a dynamic one, not a static, cut and dried call with few outside implications.

everything you just said is all about math except the part where you talk about you don't always call because you apparently randomly play badly sometimes.

LMAO. Only Sometimes?

Whatever logic you're trying to use, if you would ever fold here, YOU are beatable and playing like someone who doesn't want to last very long in a tournament, much less win.

In a live setting, if I have this stack and button shover has that stack, I'm calling without even looking at my cards. When I flip over QTo, I'm going to be happy (double fist pump 2/3 of the time) no matter what villain turns over. The fact that this is online and I can already see that I have QTo makes this a no-brainer and would be with a lot less than QTo.

This is not a spot where math matters or decision making matters because of the stacks of the two players involved. Both should lead you to calling 100% of the time though. If you don't like that, don't end up with such a small stack or play ring games where you can reload and not play against so many short stacks with survival considerations.

<3

so true, all your reads etc are doing is allowing you to narrow/widen his shoving range adjust your calling range based on what he is shoving

Couldn't disagree more mate! At this stage of the game you might as well put a post it note on the screen and not look at your cards - you'll need to push at least once per round, so you need to pick a spot where you can get first in the pot and at least some fold equity.

I agree, but here the question is about CALLING someone else's shove.

So not too much fold equity?