BRM for Limit Hold'em

#1 22nd February 2010, 2:41 PM

I have started looking into limit hold'em coming from a no-limit background. I've noticed that there's this weird phrasing where, for examples, games with $2 big blinds and $1 small blinds are called " 2/4" and so forth. I've also looked around the internet for this and they usually say a guideline of either 300 "big bets" or 300 big blinds. So between both these points I've just found written instruction to be confusing because I'm often not sure whether they mean 1/2 when they say 4/2 or not, or whether they mean big bets or blinds...Any help here?

#2 22nd February 2010, 5:05 PM

I use 300 big bets as my guideline. I remember running into the same issues where I also saw 300 big blinds.

As for the naming, it is referring to the size of the bets. For example, it is called 2/4 since bets are $2 preflop and flop and then $4 on turn and river. Big blind will be equal to small bet. Big bet of $4 is what you'd use for your BRM guideline

#3 22nd February 2010, 6:27 PM

I had a thread like this for LO8 and the answer most people gave was 300 big bets. Some also stated that 350 was a way to ensure you don;t go busto fast.

#4 22nd February 2010, 6:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmixer

I had a thread like this for LO8 and the answer most people gave was 300 big bets. Some also stated that 350 was a way to ensure you don;t go busto fast.

$1200...

That's 300 Big Bets for $2/$4 Limit, if you bust "fast" with it... you are definitely doing something wrong...

#5 22nd February 2010, 6:59 PM

As with NL, the 300 BB guideline is just that, a guideline. If you play a higher or lower variance style than average, you may want a somewhat larger roll or be okay with a somewhat smaller one.

#6 22nd February 2010, 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjonius

As with NL, the 300 BB guideline is just that, a guideline. If you play a higher or lower variance style than average, you may want a somewhat larger roll or be okay with a somewhat smaller one.

No no, NL has a totally different suggested guideline. Don't confuse OP.

20 Buy-In's minimum for that stake... IE: $1/$2 NL = $200 (buy-in) x 20 = $4000, minimum

#7 22nd February 2010, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Pilgrim

$1200...

That's 300 Big Bets for $2/$4 Limit, if you bust "fast" with it... you are definitely doing something wrong...

Def don't want to thread crap here but I can only hope to someday haave $1200 online.

#8 22nd February 2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Pilgrim

$1200...

That's 300 Big Bets for $2/$4 Limit, if you bust "fast" with it... you are definitely doing something wrong...

Well, no. If each hand was capped, that's $48/hand. OK, most hands are not capped. Still, if things are not going your way, it's easy to drop $100-200 in a relatively short session. If you hit a serious cooler or go on tilt, that $1200 could be gone in a couple of days. Or sooner. IMO, $1200 might barely be a sufficient bankroll for 1/2 limit but not for 2/4. And I'd be dropping down if it got below $1000. I do not like to go broke.

As always, the key is to set a stop-loss. A point at which you stop playing for at least a couple of hours because you have lost X amount. That stop point, for me, is a recognition that I am likely somewhat on tilt from losing, whether I think so at the time or not. For 2/4, I'd probably need to stop if I lost $100 or so. Or, at the least, consider moving down, to a level I feel more comfortable at.

#9 23rd February 2010, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doops

If each hand was capped, that's $48/hand.

I disagree. There's no reason to have a hand capped on every street unless you have an insane Quads Vs. Full House and Full House turning into Quads. Not without analyzing the situation at hand, info on your opponent, and how your opponent plays. If a hand gets capped pre-flop you should really rethink your hand.

Quote:

OK, most hands are not capped.

99% of all limit hands dealt in the world will not get capped on every street.

Quote:

Still, if things are not going your way, it's easy to drop $100-200 in a relatively short session.

Self Control - players who lose racks in short sessions are playing too many hands most of the time. I once saw a guy lose 5 racks within two orbits playing $2/$6, and in those 2 orbits, I lost $4, Never have I invested more than $20 - $35 per hand playing this game without knowing I have the best hand. Limit these days in question is 100% about hand selection, position, and picking your opponents.

Quote:

If you hit a serious cooler or go on tilt, that $1200 could be gone in a couple of days.

If you are susceptible to tilt, you should not be playing limit... at all.

Quote:

IMO, $1200 might barely be a sufficient bankroll for 1/2 limit but not for 2/4.

$1200 is plenty for $2/$4 with a disciplined player.

Quote:

As always, the key is to set a stop-loss. A point at which you stop playing for at least a couple of hours because you have lost X amount. That stop point, for me, is a recognition that I am likely somewhat on tilt from losing, whether I think so at the time or not.

Again, you can't tilt here at all, you have to be disciplined. Suck outs are going to happen a lot, with the invasion of the rec player who watched High Stakes Poker, or WSOP events on ESPN/GSN live limit hold em has gone to shit. As, long as you're disciplined and not playing with over buttons, you should be fine with $1200 for $2/$4

Limit requires a lot of self control not the kind of control to cap every street. I'll buy into a $2/$6 Spread Limit Live Game with a rack of blue (blue=$1 here, a rack = $100), and come out ahead $150 - $250 every time. A lot of low limit players are hugely rec players $2/$4 - $4/$8 (here anyway), which makes this field really profitable but at the same time higher variance, also at the same time the higher variance is counter acted by Risk/Cost ratio... You can't lose your whole stack in one hand on a suckout like NL.

I built my whole live NL bankroll first by playing $2/$6 Spread Limit, sure I had a few losing sessions, but overall My $500 got up to $6000 playing $2/$6 limit over the course of 3 months. Playing 2 days a week for 8 hours a day.

So guidelines or no guidelines... I don't care if I flopped a set of aces, I'm betting every street against my calling station opponent until I see his card hit on the turn or river. And if it doesn't hit more chips for me. +EV if you actually follow the advice given for Group 1 and 2 hands and play them accordingly based on position at the table.

#10 23rd February 2010, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Pilgrim

I disagree. There's no reason to have a hand capped on every street unless you have an insane Quads Vs. Full House and Full House turning into Quads. Not without analyzing the situation at hand, info on your opponent, and how your opponent plays. If a hand gets capped pre-flop you should really rethink your hand.

99% of all limit hands dealt in the world will not get capped on every street.

Self Control - players who lose racks in short sessions are playing too many hands most of the time. I once saw a guy lose 5 racks within two orbits playing $2/$6, and in those 2 orbits, I lost $4, Never have I invested more than $20 - $35 per hand playing this game without knowing I have the best hand. Limit these days in question is 100% about hand selection, position, and picking your opponents.

If you are susceptible to tilt, you should not be playing limit... at all.

$1200 is plenty for $2/$4 with a disciplined player.

Again, you can't tilt here at all, you have to be disciplined. Suck outs are going to happen a lot, with the invasion of the rec player who watched High Stakes Poker, or WSOP events on ESPN/GSN live limit hold em has gone to shit. As, long as you're disciplined and not playing with over buttons, you should be fine with $1200 for $2/$4

Limit requires a lot of self control not the kind of control to cap every street. I'll buy into a $2/$6 Spread Limit Live Game with a rack of blue (blue=$1 here, a rack = $100), and come out ahead $150 - $250 every time. A lot of low limit players are hugely rec players $2/$4 - $4/$8 (here anyway), which makes this field really profitable but at the same time higher variance, also at the same time the higher variance is counter acted by Risk/Cost ratio... You can't lose your whole stack in one hand on a suckout like NL.

I built my whole live NL bankroll first by playing $2/$6 Spread Limit, sure I had a few losing sessions, but overall My $500 got up to $6000 playing $2/$6 limit over the course of 3 months. Playing 2 days a week for 8 hours a day.

So guidelines or no guidelines... I don't care if I flopped a set of aces, I'm betting every street against my calling station opponent until I see his card hit on the turn or river. And if it doesn't hit more chips for me. +EV if you actually follow the advice given for Group 1 and 2 hands and play them accordingly based on position at the table.

All true. And I have the same experience -- in casinos. Online, 2/4 seems to be harder for me to beat. Live, I can play for hours with my initial $100 at 2/4, and usually come out well ahead. I am fairly comfortable with the swings, most of the time.

Online... different story. At .25/.50, I don't tilt; at .50/1, I start to tilt if I am losing a lotta hands on the river or if I get a lot of premium hands that don't hold up; at 1/2 and 2/4, I am uncomfortable with the bigger swings and am more susceptible to tilt. So I protect myself from myself. If you don't have to, good for you.

Actually, I don't have a bankroll in casinos -- I have a budget. Online, I have a bankroll that I don't want to deplete. I realize that, the way I play, makes it very hard for me to substantially increase my bankroll. It kinda goes up and down in a finite range. So be it. Occasionally I have withdrawn. I just do not want to deposit again, so tend towards possibly severe conservatism.

And I only mentioned that capped hand as an example of the maximum risk. Truly, it's very rare -- except in a couple of the wilder online limit tourneys. I did sit at a ring game in a casino last year where one guy was about to ship out to Iraq and wanted to play very wildly -- he made sure every hand was capped. For a good 2 hours. He laughed the whole time, as, regularly, his garbage hands hit the flop hard. He left when he finally realized the rest of us were not enjoying this -- and he left with most of the chips at the table. The rest of us were both sympathetic and peeved. One guy was close to crying with frustration. Yeah, it happens.

#11 23rd February 2010, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doops

All true. And I have the same experience -- in casinos. Online, 2/4 seems to be harder for me to beat. Live, I can play for hours with my initial $100 at 2/4, and usually come out well ahead. I am fairly comfortable with the swings, most of the time.

Online... different story. At .25/.50, I don't tilt; at .50/1, I start to tilt if I am losing a lotta hands on the river or if I get a lot of premium hands that don't hold up; at 1/2 and 2/4, I am uncomfortable with the bigger swings and am more susceptible to tilt. So I protect myself from myself. If you don't have to, good for you.

Actually, I don't have a bankroll in casinos -- I have a budget. Online, I have a bankroll that I don't want to deplete. I realize that, the way I play, makes it very hard for me to substantially increase my bankroll. It kinda goes up and down in a finite range. So be it. Occasionally I have withdrawn. I just do not want to deposit again, so tend towards possibly severe conservatism.

And I only mentioned that capped hand as an example of the maximum risk. Truly, it's very rare -- except in a couple of the wilder online limit tourneys. I did sit at a ring game in a casino last year where one guy was about to ship out to Iraq and wanted to play very wildly -- he made sure every hand was capped. For a good 2 hours. He laughed the whole time, as, regularly, his garbage hands hit the flop hard. He left when he finally realized the rest of us were not enjoying this -- and he left with most of the chips at the table. The rest of us were both sympathetic and peeved. One guy was close to crying with frustration. Yeah, it happens.

Gotcha, online is a totally different animal. No one's priced out to fold live or online, so many small draws go to the river in both, but I find it harder to sustain constant profit in limit online opposed to live (as do you). Really anything below $2/$4 Limit online well... no there's a lot of fish in there too, hmmm.... $4/$8 limit online is when you start to have a real limit game online it seems. I'm having a hard time typing and keeping my thoughts clear due to the image of some guy crying at a poker table...

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