Betting from the small blind

#1 21st June 2011, 9:42 AM

A lot of the time I am folding my small blind and I am wondering whether this might be a leak, due to playing too tight.

Obviously if it is SB vs BB then I am widening my range a lot, but I am still folding more than 50% of the time when it's SB vs BB.

If everybody limps I often pay half a big blind to see the flop with any two cards - this might be another leak, due to not playing tightly enough!

#2 21st June 2011, 9:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F4STFORW4RD

A lot of the time I am folding my small blind and I am wondering whether this might be a leak, due to playing too tight.
Doubt it.
Obviously if it is SB vs BB then I am widening my range a lot, but I am still folding more than 50% of the time when it's SB vs BB.

If everybody limps I often pay half a big blind to see the flop with any two cards - this might be another leak, due to not playing tightly enough!

Not 'might be'... is for sure!

#3 21st June 2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Not 'might be'... is for sure!

Thanks

I saw a very short video by one of the FT pros, explaining that it is much better to use 87 from the SB than A6, for example, as you have a much better chance of hitting a great hand.

The video was too short to give much advice, as it was only just over two minutes long

#4 21st June 2011, 6:46 PM

I agree with Poker Orifice: "doubt it" and "for sure".

It is difficult to overemphasize the importance of position.

Additionally, if you play from the SB only infrequently, your opponents will tend to give you more credit for a big hand then perhaps you deserve. This helps to mitigate your positional disadvantage somewhat when you do play from the SB.

#5 21st June 2011, 7:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F4STFORW4RD

If everybody limps I often pay half a big blind to see the flop with any two cards - this might be another leak, due to not playing tightly enough!

Huge dilemma about this situation. Happens in cheap games and play money alot.

Example;

You know the table is nitty, with inexperienced players afraid to raise, but more than willing to see a flop.

You in the SB find 83o, and want to fold, you have no problem folding, but the whole table limps (10 seats for ease) and it costs you 1/2 bet into a pot of 10 bets (implied BB will check). That is 20-1 odds! Basic beginner pot odds tells you you have to call this. Even if only half the table limps, giving you 10-1 odds you pretty much have to join the party.

Granted, your 83o is a terrible hand, and getting away from it will be no problem, but at those odds????? Whats a guy gonna do!

Most written stuff suggests something around 7-1 almost demands limping with ATC. I at least prefer to have a face card............ And even with 2 face cards I often decide I just don't want to get involved in a potential shove fest post flop, so decide to save some chips preflop, but I do so knowing that I have the pot odds to call.

Yeah it is a statistical mistake to miss an opportunity, but is also a statistical mistake to call with ATC as the sb is generally considered a losing position.

{If you fold to 9 limps, and the implied BB limp, then the poker goods will drop a flop of 883 every time you fold 83o preflop when the whole table has limped......}

incidentally, at a full table, 10 seats, that 83o has a 9.1% chance of winning, and an AKo in that same situation only has about an 18.3% win rate. Any pair will do better, obviously. So in this example of 10 limps, you are getting 20-1 potential on a 9.1-1 stat. For clarity if you could get 20-1 on a 2-1 bet would you take it? Pot odds tell you to do it, yes.

If, including you, there are 5 players, the 83o increases to a win rate of 14.9%. Highest Ax hand still wins less than 30%. In that case you are getting in at 10-1, with a 14.9% chance of winning. Still good.

Somebody's gonna ream me a new one about these stats......

#6 21st June 2011, 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

Huge dilemma about this situation. Happens in cheap games and play money alot.

Example;

You know the table is nitty, with inexperienced players afraid to raise, but more than willing to see a flop.

You in the SB find 83o, and want to fold, you have no problem folding, but the whole table limps (10 seats for ease) and it costs you 1/2 bet into a pot of 10 bets (implied BB will check). That is 20-1 odds! Basic beginner pot odds tells you you have to call this. Even if only half the table limps, giving you 10-1 odds you pretty much have to join the party.

Granted, your 83o is a terrible hand, and getting away from it will be no problem, but at those odds????? Whats a guy gonna do!

Most written stuff suggests something around 7-1 almost demands calling with ATC. I at least prefer to have a face card............ And even with 2 face cards I often decide I just don't want to get involved in a potential shove fest post flop, so decide to save some chips preflop, but I do so knowing that I have the pot odds to call.

Yeah it is a statistical mistake to miss an opportunity, but is also a statistical mistake to call with ATC as the sb is generally considered a losing position.

Then the poker goods will drop a flop of 883 every time you fold 83o preflop when the whole table has limped......

Fold the 83o and all the trash hands you find in these situations. Even if everyone limps it's a CLEAR fold and it's not even close.

#7 21st June 2011, 7:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Fold the 83o and all the trash hands you find in these situations. Even if everyone limps it's a CLEAR fold and it's not even close.

Even when pot odd's are favorable?

#8 21st June 2011, 8:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

Even when pot odd's are favorable?

They're still not favorable enough to make completing +EV.

#9 21st June 2011, 9:43 PM

If your in the sb and got loads of limpers in front of you, then just fold your rubbish hands. Try raising a bit more when its sb vs bb, you need to be stealing the big blind just to stay in the tournament sometimes and also you disguise your hand when your raising more frequent.

#10 21st June 2011, 10:50 PM

Let me share a post I wrote sometime ago with my short poker career. It expresses quite well what is the difference between letting the blinds go or not. Basically the difference of winning or loosing in FR in my game was to stop defending the blinds, especially completing the SB.

Hope it gives some insight about how huge of a leak it can be.

http://www.cardschat.com/showpost1749188-post54.html

#11 21st June 2011, 11:44 PM

I don't like widening my range too much from the sb. It is the worst position for a start and a lot of players get a bit crazy with bb vs sb. I never know whether they are defending the bb or actually have a hand.

Out of curiosity what is everyone small blind and big blind vpip. Mine is 17.5 and 12

#12 22nd June 2011, 1:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

They're still not favorable enough to make completing +EV.

While I agree with u, and seldom play trash, what good is learning pot odds if we ignore the data?

#13 22nd June 2011, 8:08 AM

You are ignoring the other part of the data, your EV in that position. Pot odds are a bit irrelevant if you are loosing money in that position right? Think it this way, how many times will you hit a flop that will pay up those odds?

#14 22nd June 2011, 9:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

Huge dilemma about this situation. Happens in cheap games and play money alot.

Example;

You know the table is nitty, with inexperienced players afraid to raise, but more than willing to see a flop.

You in the SB find 83o, and want to fold, you have no problem folding, but the whole table limps (10 seats for ease) and it costs you 1/2 bet into a pot of 10 bets (implied BB will check). That is 20-1 odds! Basic beginner pot odds tells you you have to call this. Even if only half the table limps, giving you 10-1 odds you pretty much have to join the party. You don't have to do anything because odds tell you too, there are a lot of other factors in play here.

Granted, your 83o is a terrible hand, and getting away from it will be no problem, but at those odds????? Whats a guy gonna do!Fold, there is also a thing called reverse implied odds in play here. Like the times when we flop our 8 and we are forced to fold to heavy action, or we hit and we still don't have the best hand.

Most written stuff suggests something around 7-1 almost demands limping with ATC. I at least prefer to have a face card............ And even with 2 face cards I often decide I just don't want to get involved in a potential shove fest post flop, so decide to save some chips preflop, but I do so knowing that I have the pot odds to call.Get all of the "written stuff" you have and set it on fire, common sense and a brain is all you need to work out what to do in this situation.

Yeah it is a statistical mistake to miss an opportunity, but is also a statistical mistake to call with ATC as the sb is generally considered a losing position.

{If you fold to 9 limps, and the implied BB limp, then the poker goods will drop a flop of 883 every time you fold 83o preflop when the whole table has limped......}

incidentally, at a full table, 10 seats, that 83o has a 9.1% chance of winning, and an AKo in that same situation only has about an 18.3% win rate. Any pair will do better, obviously. So in this example of 10 limps, you are getting 20-1 potential on a 9.1-1 stat. For clarity if you could get 20-1 on a 2-1 bet would you take it? Pot odds tell you to do it, yes.
9.1%, that is completely incorrect. It may be correct in a vacuum preflop, your forgetting the times when we hit and are forced to fold postflop, or hell, even put more money in and have to fold the turn somehow. Basically, since we are OOP it's going to be hard to know if we have the best hand, or get value from what we know to be the best hand.
If, including you, there are 5 players, the 83o increases to a win rate of 14.9%. Highest Ax hand still wins less than 30%. In that case you are getting in at 10-1, with a 14.9% chance of winning. Still good.
This is all preflop, it has no bearing in postflop play. Those numbers will drop dramatically postflop, as there is three streets of betting, and we will be OOP for all of them.
Somebody's gonna ream me a new one about these stats......

Things you need to consider about completing.

How often you actually flop a hand worth going with. 83 hits rarely.

How much you spew postflop when you hit some sort of pair and put more money in than you should.

Position, it matters more than most things, playing oop here will cause you to put more money in with the worst hand, and also, it's much harder for you to put money in with the best hand.

One smaller part of this is if you want to multitable STT or MT SNG or even MTT's and cash games, calling often wastes time, while it might be considered a small amount of time, if you do this often, you are spending a lot of time in spots that are not that profitable overall, so you could be spending a lot more time on things that matter more.

How often you get paid when you do actually hit a hand worth going with? Lets say we hit 83 on a board of q83. how often do you think other villians hit that board, considering we just took an 8 and a 3 out of the equation?

Lastly, everyone has limped. Liklihood is that they didn't limp with strong hands, it's going to be extremely tough for them to put considerable amounts of money in postflop with weak hands right?

There is probably more, but it looks to me there are more factors pushing this into a fold than a call, no matter what pre-flop odds we are getting.

#15 22nd June 2011, 1:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IvanShovski

Additionally, if you play from the SB only infrequently, your opponents will tend to give you more credit for a big hand then perhaps you deserve. This helps to mitigate your positional disadvantage somewhat when you do play from the SB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariesj11

Try raising a bit more when its sb vs bb, you need to be stealing the big blind just to stay in the tournament sometimes and also you disguise your hand when your raising more frequent.

These sound like contradictory advice to me, although I have already said that I widen my opening range for SB vs BB

What I find is that the multi-tabling regulars tend to respect my SB raises, and I assume that they are using trackers, also the Eastern European nits are quite easy to read, but there are a lot of players in the $1.10 45 man tournaments that I frequent who tend to be a lot more unpredictable.

I should really have made it clear originally that I am not talking about cash games, I am talking about sit and go tournaments. Whether that makes a big difference I am not sure

#16 22nd June 2011, 6:22 PM

This thread is making the CC buyin Carbon game -EV

#17 22nd June 2011, 7:16 PM

Just had a nit to my right raise on the button, nit to my left on the BB, I dutifully folded my A8 thinking "I might be in trouble if an ace flops", BB called and flop was 878 rainbow!

#18 22nd June 2011, 7:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

Even when pot odd's are favorable?

What are you hoping to hit? You could flop two pair and you still wouldn't know you were good, and even if you do flop an absolute monster, it's gonna be extremely difficult to extract any value from the hand.

#19 22nd June 2011, 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F4STFORW4RD

Thanks

I saw a very short video by one of the FT pros, explaining that it is much better to use 87 from the SB than A6, for example, as you have a much better chance of hitting a great hand.

The video was too short to give much advice, as it was only just over two minutes long

In the 2mins. did it mention why playing the A-rag OOP in SB is just f'n terrible?

#20 22nd June 2011, 11:31 PM

My point wasn't so much about what cards I/we have in the SB, but rather if we ever use pot odds to sway a decision. If they don't apply on a table full of limps, when do pot odds apply? And why?

As for what am I hoping to hit with any holdings? Quads or a boat..ldo/......

#21 23rd June 2011, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj11

My point wasn't so much about what cards I/we have in the SB, but rather if we ever use pot odds to sway a decision. If they don't apply on a table full of limps, when do pot odds apply? And why?

As for what am I hoping to hit with any holdings? Quads or a boat..ldo/......

In addition to what Wizzim posted, you also have to realize that you may not even get to see the flop because the BB has the option to raise.

#22 24th June 2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

In the 2mins. did it mention why playing the A-rag OOP in SB is just f'n terrible?

Did you read post 17?

#23 24th June 2011, 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F4STFORW4RD

Did you read post 17?

was that part of the vid.?

#24 24th June 2011, 6:30 PM

He said avoid hands like ace rag and that a hand like 87 is much better, but like a Readers' Digest article he asked a question and then didn't really answer it!

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