Basic PLO hand, what do you do?

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($11.52)
CO ($3.20)
Button ($7.52)
Hero (SB) ($22.99)
BB ($12.90)
UTG ($8.76)
UTG+1 ($2.45)
MP1 ($7)
MP2 ($23.28)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 9, J, A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Button bets $0.37, Hero ????

Treat all villains as unknown and competent. Do you pot, 3/4 pot, call?

I bump it, pot to make sure it's HU. Then I donk off my whole stack postflop cuz I'm still a one trick hold'em horse. Also, the SPR'd be ~2 after my raise.

Bump.

The problem with this hand is that you only have the two aces and nothing more. Odds are the raiser is holding at least one ace, so it is hard for your hand to improve. Unless I knew the table was loose, I would probably fold this hand pre-flop.

I would call preflop you have the 2 aces + the A J and J 9 which could get you a straight. I would raise if you had one of the aces suited but since they are not I would just call see a flop and go from there.

Folding this hand pf is criminal. AAxx, where xx is pure rags, is a favorite against any hand except a better AAxx hand. This hand is better than rags.

If villain's competent, his range there includes lots of rundowns, pairs, pair + rundowns, etc.

I've seen two lines of thought w this general situation. One is to call. The reasoning is we're oop and building a big pot oop is not ideal.

Second line of thought is to pot (a la Mase above). The logic is to get to HU w a hand that'll do better HU than multiway, and to build the pot w a very strong hand. This is my normal play esp oop - I'm hoping to be 4bet so I can shove.

3/4 pot never occurred to me - I can see an advantage in that I really would prefer getting all in pf, but that depends on getting 4bet. oop, I'm not really thrilled w seeing a flop that doesn't have an A or doesn't have broadway straight potential, so 3/4 pot would allow me to cbet and get away from the hand more cheaply against an unfavorable flop than full pot. And obv if I do get 4bet pf, I can still shove.

Looking forward to the discussion.

I was going to wait a little longer to make this post but it is a good enough time for it I guess.

I'll discuss all the different options that we have and the merits of each. Dealing with Post flop, we shall assume we miss the board because this is the most likely outcome. We have no suits, Straights are not too likely and when we hit, it is easy to play. It is when we miss that makes it difficult.

1) Folding. It is pretty bad to fold AAxx preflop seeing as you are almost always a favourite. Yes you are only slightly ahead but in a cash game you have to play small edges to make the most profit.

2) Pot. Potting in my opinion is probably the second best option. The reason that potting is not the best option here is because we seldom get all the chips in preflop. A competent villain at this stakes is not going to stack off very often preflop, even with hands like J-10-9-8 double suited. Most villains will often just call the 3 bet (which would be to about 1.50$ if my math is correct). Say everyone comes along which is kinda unlikely, we have a pot bet left to get the money in on the flop but against so many villains, if an A is not on the board we are generally behind here and most likely end up check folding a TON of flops cause bluffing into 3 or 4 players is pretty aweful.

If we can pot and get it HU against the 8$ stack, which is the most likely situation with a 3 bet, he still has 6$ left and a pot of only 4$. What do we do now on the boards that miss us? In a situation like this, villain hits a lot more boards than us (if he does not have AAxx as well which we can safely disregard because he would have stacked that preflop). Do we pot? Is it profitable? This is a situation where we are way behind or slightly ahead if an A is not on the flop. We pot and he shoves we have to call when we are crushed unless he is spew tard. We check and he bets, we are left in a crappy position. When he folds to our c-bet, he is folding every hand that we beat.

It is only correct to pot in this situation when we can get the majority of our stack in preflop so that we can just shove on the flop, which makes decision making so much easier. If by potting you can only getting about 20% effective stacks in preflop, you are just going to find yourself in a bunch of shitty situations. A lot of people forget how much of a post flop game this is. Ill just use an example, We have AAxx, villain has K-8-7-6 double suited. What do you think our equity is HU preflop? We have a whopping 52%. When we stick like 30% of stacks in, when he misses he can safely fold a lot of flops without much decision but when we miss, a)we lose a ton of money, b) we sometimes have to give up and allow him to bluff us out of the pot, c) we check and he checks back and now he gets a freecard which is more likely to help him that us.

Plain and simple, if you cannot get it in preflop or 75% of stack preflop, it is probably a bad pot bet.

3) 3/4 pot, did not really consider this cause it leaves us in the same situation as potting does, with a little bit less money committed. We also keep more villains in and have to give up more post flop.

4) Calling. Lose less money when you miss. Disguises your hand more. Can give up a lot easier and have less tough decisions post flop.


Hope this makes sense, seems like I'm ranting a little.

I'm an avid believer in Max Value for Min Risk -- I would call just to see the flop; if nothing interesting develops, I'm able to get out of the hand

Completely get what you're saying and understand the rationale, thanks!

Interesting, though - I ended up playing a session today after watching two dc vids (super basic intro PLO stuff) and reading this, and ended up playing like a passive wimp for two hours and lost a few bi's. I just don't feel incredibly comfortable without trying to take initiative pf, that's the NLHE background I guess.

So, I understand the idea of seeing the flop cheaply w a hand that isn't likely to flop all that well, but will flop an absolute monster when it does hit. Here's where I get stuck, though, from my NLHE experience - playing fit or fold oop is a huge leak in NLHE - but I'm gathering it's a necessary evil in PLO - is that a fair statement?

Also, taking the idea a step further - rather than the AAxx hand, let's say we're in the SB w a good but not great rundown hand - say JT97r or JT96ss, or something like that. Are we taking the same line as w the AAxx hand?

Being passive preflop is definitely ok (you see a lot of good players have stats like 25/10 or something like that) but postflop it is, as in holdem, more profitable to be aggressive. Generally people will not slowplay, if they have a hand they will bet and if they dont, they will check. One must really exploit this and the only way to do that is to be aggressive. Bet when you see missed draws on board, people will not play back at you when this missed. Also You do not want to be getting into the habit of not betting hands like 2 pair just because someone might have the nuts. A lot of people miss a ton of thin value in those situation.

No, fit or fold is not as bad in PLO as it is in HE. With that said you still have to balance your ranges and not just be nut peddling post flop. Bluffing is so important and overlooked and because so many people do play fit or fold it is very very profitable.

If there is a raise in front of me, with a hand like J1097r, I am very willing to just see the flop. Sometimes, even with the AAxx hand above, I will be raising preflop depending on how wide their open is and how they play the flop.

I guess I am a nit. I usually don't like doing anything with AAxx hands unless there is some other angle with the hand. True, there is the straight potential with the J9, but your opponent is probably holding something similar to have raised pre-flop. I could see a call on a loose table, but I wouldn't be fist-pumping.

As for fit or fold, I have found that being more aggressive pre- and post-flop will win you a lot of small to medium pots. The problem I am running into is when to slow down or throw away a drawing hand against an already made hand.

AAxx without a single suit is a calling hand at best here. Betting the pot might work to get you heads up and if it does you will be in good shape but....what if the flop comes with three cards of the same suit. Or even worse a paird board. In low stakes games these are the things that PLO players are thinking about. Having said that though AA is always worth seeing the flop. I would rather it be at least single suited but it is still possible to see the flop here. So many factors left to consider. What if you pot bet it and get pot re raised. You might be looking at someone else with AA and they may have redraws to the flush to go along with it. AAxx in PLO is just another 2 card hand. We are trying to play 4 card hands. However if you are going to play 2 card hands I can;t think of a better one to play.