Bank Roll Management

For the past 5 years or so I havn't been at all dedicated in my efforts to build a bankroll online. Mostly I would invest enough to play in tournaments (small stakes). I am ahead by a small margin on pokerstars, and Bodog. Whenever I won big I would cash out, play on what was left, and make another deposit somewhere down the road.
Well, now is the time to try something different.
I'm going to make a small deposit and try to build a big bank roll.
Easier said than done,(I know).
Recently I was inspired by Chris Furguson's Bankroll Management video in the Fulltilt poker acadamy, and with the recent actions by our government to take away our right to play poker online, I've decided to take the lesson to heart,and see if I can actually do it myself befor online poker is totally taken away from us. If any one would like to know If I'm winning, Losing, Breaking even, and what games and levels I'm playing, I will share my progress. Since I'm new here at cardschat, and I've never tried posting an ongoing thread befor, I think it best to ask for feedback on the Idea befor going on.Send Me a private message or reply here , for any advice you folks might have. Thanks and good luck at the tables.

Go ahead and keep us informed. Actually, one of the best ways to keep track of how well you're doing is by doing something like a frequent forum post or a blog to keep track. With the forum post, you are probably more likely to get feedback that on a new blog. Good luck!

Furguson is a good bet. I enjoyed his article on Bankroll Mangement as well. Please keep us posted on your prgress

OK Here we go. I made a deposit of $50 on Fulltilt. I also have a few bucks on Bodog and Poker Stars. I will be playing all 3 sites depending on finding a beatable game on any given day and time of day etc.
At all times I will play at limits no more than 5% of my bankroll at all times and 2% or less for MTT and sit-n-gos. I will make new posts on this thread every few days or so for updates.

Good luck to you, sticking to your bankroll is one of the hardest things to do for a new poker player, especially being so low

It's especially difficult to stay within BRM when you are on a serious downswing.

well I was definately on a downswing over the weekend. By Sunday evening, My bankroll was at $30. This net loss included a buy in to a sateltite sit-n-go in the amount of $3.30 that i did win. I failed to cash in the double duce. I know that it was above the 2%, however allother ganmes were NL 2 cent games where the max buy in was $2.
Last night after work, I had 3 tables going in NL still playing in the lowest limits available. I won a total of $8.00. This put my total bank roll @$38.27. The strategy for the week is to continue playing in the small,limit games the rest of the week and play the best poker That I can and hopefully show a profit from where my bank is now. If I had been playing at higher stakes I would definately be broke by now. So lets see how things go......

You definitely need to keep it at the lowest stakes possible right now, whether it is MTTs, SNGs or Ring, just because if you don't it can dramatically affect your bankroll. Like I said before, this is very hard to do, because playing the limits like 2NL and 5NL feel like you are just wasting your time, but starting with such a low roll, that is what you need to do. Not to mention, playing at those levels and picking your spots through the donks will help you when you are able to move up...

Word of the wise, watch your VP$IP and keep it under 20, I see so many people at those low limits with VP$IPs that are like 50 and it just cracks me up. Wait for good cards and then carry those donks along with you and you can double up very easily. Once again, good luck!

yeah i agree, stay with the low stakes and keep grinding it out for a while. good luck!

Of course bankroll management is very important. Without this control of your money you would lose it so fast as you had deposited it.

At that bankroll it's not even possible to play in a tournament of 2%, so you have to break it sometimes, but for ring games the 5% rule seems like sound advice.

There's a lot more swings in cash games nowadays especially when you're a mediocre player like me. I'd say deposit another $50 and have at least 30+ buy-ins for 2NL. Stick to one game when you're a beginner and learn it well.

Well the downward spiral continued last week untill about midway through the week end. My bank was at a low of $9. It seemed I couldn't do any thing right. Sure, I was keeping within the bank roll management rules in mind, and playing only at the smallest limits. The problem was that I was losing all of the big pots and occationally winning small ones. I mean from one exteme to the other. When I raise with AA, KK, QQ, AK, and AQ. Either every one would fold, or I would get re- raised for all I Had at the table with 2 or 3 players in the pot. One hand in particular comes to mind where I had AA and first to act. I raise 3x the BB. Every one folds to the cutoff who puts me all in for for my $3.30. The small blind calls as well.
The raiser has 6 2 suited, Small blind has QQ. The flop comes 6 2 2.
This was in a .01-.02 NL game. Not to be detered, I had to rebuy 2 more times for $2. Since Saturday I have managed to increase my bankroll back up to $30. Maybe the losing streak is Over lol. This has been a Learning expeience for me. and I appreciate all of the comments from every one. I will continue to post and let you all know how its going... One of you mentioned a reload, well the deal Is to build a bankroll from the original $50 deposit using Chris Furgoson's bankroll management rules. So 1 of 2 things has to happen befor I can reload. Either I win a bunch of money.... or go broke. Thats the deal . I will Keep you posted On my progress at least once every week. Keeep the comments coming and Good Luck to Every one.

Bankroll management only applies to winning players. That's a tiny minority of the player pool.

Most people should rather budget how much they want to spend per month on their hobby.

sometimes we all have a bad run in poker and its really nothing much that you can do about it except keep playing the best game that you can play and wait for the tgide to turn so to speak dont let a bad run get you disheartened, just remember that you cant always win and you cant always lose...ironic sounding I know but true all the same. So, keep ur chin up and keep pushing on.

Good luck, just take a few days of from playing to kick you current bad habits,
When you come back you should start winning!

I'd advise against playing SNG's & MTT's on the weekends... super micros are terrible on the weekend.
Also, my opinion when playing 5NL & 2NL is to increase preflop raises to 5x... 3x is often going to get you seeing a flop 5-way with who knows what. Raise big & narrow the field.
Also... try to isolate the donkey(s) in position and when 3-betting them, make it a good 3.5x the size of their raise. Alot of newer players hit the auto-raise button which is only a 'min-raise' which is pricing in any & every hand to see the flop.
Satelliting into a $22 buyin MTT... whoa.. yah.. really unadvisable. Alot of players have that dream of hitting the big one and playing beyond their roll. This a recipe for failure. Satellites might in fact be profitable for you (once you have more in your br) but I'd consider taking the T$'s until you've got alot more behind you.
Keep posting here on CC, visit the HandAnalysis threads, get your posts up to where you're able to join the Freeroll Club and play in the CC freerolls. <<< good oppurtunity for adding to the bankroll and gaining some more MTT experience.

Thats great advice poker Office, weekend micro games are terrible especially when your at a table where the majority of players are other than U.S. My big come back this week has came from $1.25 Buy -in single table sng's since most of the players bust themselves out early, its fairly easy to get to at least 3rd and try again.and once again you are very right about the MTT's I've cashed a few times in the daily dollar for a few dollars. but lost the proceeds in ring games... I tried 1 satelite for the double duce two weeks ago and won it , but the tournament sucked. every table was full of donkeys just waiting to bust me out, and they did b4 half the feild cleared, so not really trying that one again. for now the daily dollar is fine. SNG's seem to be working and if I can get enough ftp's, the Biggest bonus ever should help at the end of the month. I have $22 there so far trying to get a few more. ( hard to do at the small limits)
And Thanks again for the advice!

If playing against terrible fishes is so hard, i strongly suggest you move up. And please, join my tables...

if you cant afford a tournament then you cant afford a satellite to it either. you can play the satellite and cash out and this may even be a good option for you. they have daily dollar 9 man SNGs for 30 cents to enter. and the first 2 places get entry to the daily dollar(or cash out for a $T) 3rd gets 25 cents. satellites by far are a lot softer than real money games. i'd try to stay away from the $1.25 sngs altogether. thats a 25% rake. save up until your rolled for the $2.25 sngs that will save you 12.5% in rake. good luck.

I think that when you use a new site, you should deposit, but you should not use your deposit funds until you made an equal amount from freeroll and freeroll made funds. Those "Donk Filled" freeroll are apart of the process. You learn how to detect, and defeat them before moving on to the next level of play. Otherwise, you'll find yourself depositing many more times...

Chap

I was referring to SNG's... not cash tables.
I believe you have a fair bit of experience in SNG's in the past.
It is my experience that I do far, far better when there are at least a few decent players on the table... SNG I"m talking.
Personally I don't think I could build a roll in $1 SNG's... even if the tourney fee was only 10cents. As an experiment.... do you think you could run well in the $1's? and when was the last time you've tried?

I hear this comment over & over again (above).. but in 'reality', if you're in a SNG where 7 players are calling any & ever preflop raise, even if you've tightened up to playing only 1 hand in 30.... YAH.. they suck... they suck real bad. I can't argue with my own results and my own experience... playing the super micros.. ESPECIALLY on the weekends.. is f'n horrendous. Cash tables on the weekends... pure heaven.

... such positive & helpful encouragement!!
Not everyone goes from Zero to Hero.

Well in spite of the tough times with such a small bank, I have managed to work it back up to $42.05 by sticking to the rules and playing as small as possible. I've been using the poker academy to help keep focused on what I need to do. Working at the challenges has been very helpful. I've completed so far :
5 common leaks
Pre flop play
Betting basics
Sizing up opponents.

One problem that I needed to overcome was being on tilt after bad beats.
I kept trying to go after the idiots who beat me out while playing so terrible. In doing so , I was the one who became the donkey.
I should not have kept staying at tables where I was being beat at a constant rate , and instead should have been looking for softer tables more to my liking. Well I'm off to play a few sit-n-goes now and I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. Thanks for the encouragement and helpful hints Keep them comming!

$1 sngs were my game exactly two years ago. I ran well enough to move up.

Sometimes it's better to be brutally honest.

Most people are losers at this game. And that includes very intelligent people who don't dedicate enough time and energy to the game and very dedicated people who just don't have the type of intelligence that fits the game.

Being positive and encouraging is not really helpful if it encourages people to think that their losses are just a bad run or a problem of BRM, so that they end up depositing over and over, sometimes beyond their means.

Very VERY great wisdom.

So, what is the "tiny minority" who win at poker long term, do you think, Belgo? In terms of percentage... over whatever time period you think appropriate.

"I don’t often speak in absolutes….since poker is so situational, but this is so important and true that I can say it with 100% certainty…..if you don’t control your emotions you will never be a winning player!" ---DavSimon

I didnt get to play as much as I wanted to over the weekend. I Managed to try a sit-n-go, and sat in a ring game. I gained a little bit of with my bank. I won the sit-n-go, won about .30 cents at the ring game (.01-.02 NL ). So, as of now I'm almost back to the original $50 that I started with.
Quite an acomplishment considering that My BR was down to $9 at one point. I now have $47.78 to work with. I guess I feel like I'm starting all over again and hopefully I can keep the upward momentum going.

True. Harshly true.

Bankroll management only helps winning players ride out downswings. It doesn't do much for losing players.

Not everyone has the chops to play poker successfully in the long run. Anyone can go on a lucky streak. Anyone can read and blog and experiment with ways to get better, and that will increase the likelihood of becoming an adequate player. Few even manage to break even.

OPR is not the best authority, but so far as tournament play goes, it looks as though only the top 15% of players are in the black. Not all of them, even. So 85% of all the players lose money playing tournaments. OPR does not include cash games or live play, so there is no way of knowing whether some of these people are playing tourneys for fun and killing the cash games.

Take me, for instance.
Right now, I'm in the top 2% on FT for 2009 only because of a nice win back in January. I'm not doing so well otherwise. BRM helps limit my losses. I play much better than I used to, but I am not truly competitive with higher limit (excellent) players. I can only do consistently well at low limits. I think it has to do with me, and my valuation of money, and my innate financial conservativism. It must be someti=hing like that holding me back, because, god knows, I study hard, and think a lot, and I am pretty smart. So, unless I change the sort of person I am, I think am unlikely to move up much further. While Ferguson zipped from $1000 to $10000 in a month or so, I can't seem to move up. I go up a bit, down a bit, stuck right about there. Whenever I try to move up, I start losing and have to move down again. I build up again, move up, lose, move down. Months of this. So I need to consider that, unlike Ferguson, I may not have what it takes to be successful beyond this level. I don't suck. I have a level where I can succeed. But, as hard as I try, I seem to be stuck.

Learning the basic poker skills can help you beat the lower levels of online play. But you do have to improve dramatically to play at higher levels, and not everyone has what it takes to do that.

There is a concept in business called the Peter Principle. It has to do with people getting promoted to the level of their incompetence. The good thing about poker is that one can move back down to a level where one is competent. Or simply lose at the higher level.

Best of luck in your personal BR challenge. I hope your Peter Principle level is higher than mine seems to be.

I totally agree with you. there was a lad i met who had about $140 in his account and he kept saying to me i'm on a massive downswing. he was playing 3.40 SnG's but is now grinding out $1.20 Sng's with a $14 BR

I myself believe this is not one MASSIVE downswing but the results of some one either not studying and putting the time in or not intelectually at a profitable level. The first i reckon.

It got to the poitn where he asked me to send him my bankroll because he'd told his mates he was making a living playing poker but had no bankroll to back it up.

I politely Declined.

on FTP academy is many good and new things, atm im there trying to watch all sessions and lessons, already have doned like about 1/2 of all. Also about bankroll mangaement i learn from pokerstrategy poker quiz, like about 3hours needed to do it, but i think that was good for me and my future, atm i realy dont know where to learn about pot odds... mybe some1 can giveme some link or forum threat where are writed about poker odds and how to make them better?

I like OPR but it does only give MTT info which is a daw back. Table player ratings is good for cash but as i'm only at 10NL and 25NL it doesnt cover pokerstars on these levels. Sharkscope is the best i would say to see how your doing at SNG's

Keep up the work GCpigeon and rememeber studying is a neccesity. Get a copy of the Harrington on Holdem books they worked wonders for me and read the hand analysis and strategy sections in here.

P.S if a mod wants to murge my threads i would be grateful as i didnt knowhow to multi quote an edit.

Cheers

I didnt work at the tabes as much as wanted to this past week because of having to work over time at my job. I'm glad this week is finally over, and I get to star tthe weekend with $51.21 for my bankroll.
Wow what a month.. definitly up and down.
I ve studied hard , played hard, and studied some more....
It's hard work just to keep a bankroll in tact. Especially when you make a serious mistake that sets you back a bunch $$$$$.
I wasnt comfotable playing at small stakes, and that was because I didnt respect the other payers at this level (.02 NL)
Truthfully.. I was the idiot at the table sometimes. Making mistakes like ...
checking when I should have been betting, giving an opponent the free card that they wanted. And not laying the big hands down when I needed to.. example holding on to KK after the flop when an ace hits the board even when I know my opponent prolly has an ace... purty dumb thing for me to do. Or how about making another raise with JJ or mid pair when the pot has already been raised 2x befor it gets to me... I should be folding...Well Here we go again off to a new start , and a new month coming up. I had some bad beats almost every day... but I made some terrible decisions at the tables too.
I believe Bad beats can be over come by consistantly playing your hands correctly in any given situation. Its time to build that bankroll....thanks for all the advice and comments as it has all beeen very helpful and good luck to all of you

"I believe Bad beats can be over come by consistantly playing your hands correctly in any given situation"

Actually the BadBeats will come when you have played the hand correctly. This is why they're badbeats, lol. You can price guys off draws, get it allin as a 95% fav. on the turn, 87% on the flop, or 83% preflop w AA.. and lose, lose, lose... these are the badbeats, lol.

Good players will suffer from badbeats more often than bad players... because good players are the ones who were getting their chips in good.

Definitely a good thing to do (mandatory imo) to be reviewing your play, thinking about how you could've done things differently (obviously after the fact... i mean.. you can keep it in mind while in the game but don't thrash yourself over it.. take each hand as it comes.. stay in the moment (which also means looking ahead obviously,lol). Reviewing one's play with an auto-hand-replayer is very useful imo.... gives one the oppurtunity to observe one's own play with a more objective viewpoint.