Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

After 30-40 mins they begin to adapt. They play back more, you notice this and play back at them.

If they "play back more" you need to tighten up and value town them. Just increasing your aggression even more will turn into spew very quickly.

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

They start to get more confident with weaker holdings and or slightly increase their starting cards against you (at least the ones who you will ultimately lose cash to).

Finally you lose a couple of marginal hands that you would have induced a fold from your villain in the forst 30 mins of play.

If they start showing down marginal hands such as middle pair, you just adjust by value towning them. In position, it is not that hard to pot control and get two streets of value from top pair vs middle pair type holdings.

No one at 10nl correctly adjusts by mixing in bluff check raises with value check raises and put you in a tough spot (assuming you play most of your pots in position). The people who do adjust tend to become overly spewy and you can just stack them when you do pick up a hand. Poker is about making the proper adjustments, especially at the micros where most people either play too tight or too aggressive. The poker cycle for me (yes, very oversimplified but just illustrating a basic point of, "play the opposite of what your opponents do in terms of loose/tight"):

Villains tight: Hero goes aggro -> Villain plays back: Hero tightens up and value towns: Villain tightens up: Hero goes aggro -> rinse and repeat (if it ever gets that far)

Originally Posted by Likminutz

Well there are some flaws, in the stats because I use pokertracker so a session only counts when I sit down and stand up from a table.

Therefore if I sit down at a certain table win some money, the table breaks down, and I leave after 10 minutes, that counts as a short session. However I may have been playing 3 tables at a time for over an hour. I could probably filter through all that if I really wanted, but I don't think it's worth it.

The truth is I know how I play during long sessions. It usually ends up with me starting out focused, doing well, then zoning out during the end or not thinking through each situation as well as I did in the beginning. The stats only helped confirm my belief more.

I will take your advice though and look through in more detail.

While there are a too many variables to isolate your issue (filtering through pokertracker stats by over/under 45 minutes is definitely a thought if you think you start to have a massive letdown), just a few things you may consider:

-Get something cold to drink (warmer environments tend to make people a more lackadaisical)
-Turn on some music or something to get you out of the warm cozy "put you to sleep" environment
-Try saying your thinking process out loud (assuming you don't mind people thinking you've gone crazy ) as when you lose focus, you'll start making automatic plays without really thinking about it

So um, funny thing, but I will admit when I'm wrong...kind of

I went back like WV said to, and filtered by session instead of each table.

Turns out I have won the most money play between 1 - 1.5 hrs, like A LOT more when my sessions are that long. So now I have the fact that the shorter I sit at a table the more I have won, but the longer I have played sessions the more I have won. I would think session times are more important than table times? Help?

Originally Posted by Likminutz

So um, funny thing, but I will admit when I'm wrong...kind of

I went back like WV said to, and filtered by session instead of each table.

Turns out I have won the most money play between 1 - 1.5 hrs, like A LOT more when my sessions are that long. So now I have the fact that the shorter I sit at a table the more I have won, but the longer I have played sessions the more I have won. I would think session times are more important than table times? Help?

First, look at your winrate rather than actual profits - you may be winning more in gross, but not maintaining the same winrate - or you may have a higher winrate and a higher gross!

I do think session by time is more useful than session by table - being card dead and table-specific situations impact particular tables more than your overall session.

I change tables frequently depending on a variety of things - new ss's, bad position relative to agg opponents, two empty seats (6max), fish just left, etc. - this means that many of my table sessions are short. Once in a while I "hit and run", where a combination of these lead me to not want to stay at a table even after I stacked someone (i.e., during first three orbits at table), or the table breaks up right after I stacked someone. This can distort the table session winrate dramatically. Hard to say whether this applies to you.

However, I'd think that having your best sessions in 60-90 minutes means you're getting enough time to maximize your opportunities, and you're not getting tired (I try to stop my sessions before 90 minutes because I lose my concentration). Sometimes you get great opportunities at a table in the first three or four orbits - sometimes there aren't a lot of great opportunities for the first seven or eigh orbits.

Do you have sessions longer than 90 minutes? I have a neg winrate for sessions longer than 90 minutes - usually a session longer than 90 min means I'm trying to get unstuck.

weeee +7 bi day

poker is the shit right about now

Originally Posted by Jurn8

VALUE BET !

Great advice! Thanks, Jurn. Also for the c-bet advice. It's been working great. Cheers.

Im working on adjusting to different players atm and it seems to be working nicely. Like for example I used to think stacking TPTK/Overpairs was a bad play full stop. But I am realising its fine against certain fish who will showdown like 2nd pair, sounds kinda noobish but I feel I have been missing alot of value from this.

Originally Posted by Jurn8

Im working on adjusting to different players atm and it seems to be working nicely. Like for example I used to think stacking TPTK/Overpairs was a bad play full stop. But I am realising its fine against certain fish who will showdown like 2nd pair, sounds kinda noobish but I feel I have been missing alot of value from this.

Yeah, you gotta be aware not everyone is a CCer.

lol Its not really a leak I thought I had but trying to maximize value as harder than it sounds

Originally Posted by slycbnew

I change tables frequently depending on a variety of things

THIS!!!! IS SO IMPORTANT. For me at least.

This is one of those bankroll changing skills that you can learn that doesn't really have much to do with hand to hand play...

Like BRM, table selection and remaining 'selective' after you sit down does not really cost you much money to improve, but it can do WONDERS for your bottom line.

Also like BRM it is highly personal. I am different than you in that I do bnetter at shorthanded games to a point. I don;t like HU, but 4 handed can be a fairly comfortable situation for me with the right dynamic. So some of my variables around table selection are different, but the basic idea is the same.

Bottom line.. I need there to be at least 2 people at the table who are significantly worse than me, and no more than 2 who are much better at 6max. Otherwise I gotta go...

Originally Posted by cAPSLOCK

THIS!!!! IS SO IMPORTANT. For me at least.

This is one of those bankroll changing skills that you can learn that doesn't really have much to do with hand to hand play...

Like BRM, table selection and remaining 'selective' after you sit down does not really cost you much money to improve, but it can do WONDERS for your bottom line.

Also like BRM it is highly personal. I am different than you in that I do bnetter at shorthanded games to a point. I don;t like HU, but 4 handed can be a fairly comfortable situation for me with the right dynamic. So some of my variables around table selection are different, but the basic idea is the same.

Bottom line.. I need there to be at least 2 people at the table who are significantly worse than me, and no more than 2 who are much better at 6max. Otherwise I gotta go...

Yeah moving tables is something I can do now I am 4 tabling, I have to ask myself why am I sitting at this table? fish, who are going to spew money?nits who I can loosen up and run over? regs who are ok, I move.

I think these little things make a very big difference also and probably make more and more of a difference as you move up so good to get into some practice.

Originally Posted by WurlyQ

If they "play back more" you need to tighten up and value town them. Just increasing your aggression even more will turn into spew very quickly.



If they start showing down marginal hands such as middle pair, you just adjust by value towning them. In position, it is not that hard to pot control and get two streets of value from top pair vs middle pair type holdings.

No one at 10nl correctly adjusts by mixing in bluff check raises with value check raises and put you in a tough spot (assuming you play most of your pots in position). The people who do adjust tend to become overly spewy and you can just stack them when you do pick up a hand. Poker is about making the proper adjustments, especially at the micros where most people either play too tight or too aggressive.

I think this advice would kick in at 50NL+

The issue with 10NL is that people do not know how to properly adjust. This makes it harder for you to readjust to them because their adjustments do not really follow a logical pattern or strategy.

Therefore by playing at a tempo which forces your opponents to make some form of adjustment will create more difficult decisions for you down the line.

You can't out think or out stratagise a person who makes illogical, irrational and unprofitable decisions.

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

I think this advice would kick in at 50NL+

The issue with 10NL is that people do not know how to properly adjust. This makes it harder for you to readjust to them because their adjustments do not really follow a logical pattern or strategy.

Therefore by playing at a tempo which forces your opponents to make some form of adjustment will create more difficult decisions for you down the line.

Adjusting is not a limit specific concept. If someone is making exploitable plays, you just need to figure out what they are doing and find the correct counter strategy.

If people make the incorrect adjustment, this is generally a good thing depending on whether or not their adjustment is more exploitable than before.

For example, let's say you are stealing relentlessly on the BTN and CO. Villain decides to start calling you and plays fit or fold on the flop. That is an even more profitable situation. Let's say another villain starts 3 bet shoving somewhat marginal hands out of the blinds because they are sick of you stealing. This is also more profitable than before.

Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar

You can't out think or out stratagise a person who makes illogical, irrational and unprofitable decisions.

I disagree with this statement. You just have to figure out what they are doing wrong and find the correct exploitation. It doesn't matter if they are rational or not. Most people are simpletons. The ones that do adjust, do not balance their ranges. They just make some adjustment and stick with it, rational or not.

I'll definitely take a look at winrate when I get a moment.

Originally Posted by slycbnew

Do you have sessions longer than 90 minutes? I have a neg winrate for sessions longer than 90 minutes - usually a session longer than 90 min means I'm trying to get unstuck.

Although I don't have many, the ones that I do have over 90 minutes are just massive explosion of terrible play-trying to get unstuck-tilt

i has made a vid

Originally Posted by Jurn8

i has made a vid

Link?

rendering atm dont know whether to upload to youtube, megaupload or blip.tv

MU ftw

Originally Posted by kleitches

blip.tv ftw

fyp

i was actually thinking youtube lol see which is easiest to upload to

Youtube has a 10 minute max length right?

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Youtube has a 10 minute max length right?

If you have a director account you can upload longer videos.

i went for blip.tv

Originally Posted by Jurn8

i went for blip.tv

Amateur.

http://blip.tv/file/2536899

says its being converted to a flash doc atm, not sure what that does lol

Where's the September Micro thread? Should I start one?

You should have but since you didn't here you go!

***September Micro Thread***