All in-bad or good?

Is this a good all in ?

Stage #1593938000 Tourney ID 4317716 Holdem Sit & Go Multi Table Tournament No Limit 400 - 2009-04-14 17:09:50 (ET)
Table: 3 (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 1 - DAVIDLEIGH (6407 in chips)
Seat 2 - JIMMYRESO (3160 in chips)
Seat 3 - N2KFACTOR (3970 in chips)
Seat 5 - ALSKI (14929 in chips)
Seat 6 - BIGSHLANCE (11174 in chips)
Seat 8 - KR_NIX (15100 in chips)
Seat 9 - MR SHOEY (12760 in chips)
KR_NIX - Posts small blind 200
MR SHOEY - Posts big blind 400
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to N2KFACTOR [Ad 10c]
DAVIDLEIGH - Folds
JIMMYRESO - Folds
N2KFACTOR - All-In(Raise) 3970 to 3970
ALSKI - Calls 3970
BIGSHLANCE - Folds
KR_NIX - Folds
MR SHOEY - Folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd 7d 7h]
*** TURN *** [Jd 7d 7h] 3♠
*** RIVER *** [Jd 7d 7h 3s] 9♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
N2KFACTOR - Shows [Ad 10c] (One pair, sevens)
ALSKI - Shows [Ac Qh] (One pair, sevens)
ALSKI Collects 8540 from main pot

It's not the worst all in, but you are starting to get pretty low. You did have a few big blinds left to grind out and hope to get a better hand but if you felt like this was the best you've seen in a while it's not all that bad.

I know but I've constantly been losing this way...Good players told me you must shove/fold with <10BBs but this method hardly seems to work for me at this $1 level because people never seem to fold any kind of hand at this level..Its mostly a bingo unless you have AA pre..I am sick of these donks lol

Agree with n2kfactor, almost all the small buy-in tournaments I've been playing lately almost seem like freerolls. No one, but apparantly me, will fold A rag no matter what the bet is. I prbably would have just like to have seen the flop with A-10, but I've gone all in, in your position with worse hands.

I thought it was a terrible choice to push here. 10-13BBs is my cutoff, so it fits that criteria, but the position is horrible. Just too many players left behind me as potential callers. If I'm pushing from that spot with a marginal hand it's going to be something that's not easily dominated, and AT doesn't fit the bill.

Massive leak, like Brann said.

You can push 10bb or less SB vs BB

Maybe the button.

But from the CO that is pretty bad.

even if your called by some donk, your at best a 60/40 dog.

Start panicking when ur down to an M of 4 which is around 6BB.

Download SNGwizard and work on shoving ranges. Even ur SB shoves r alot to do with fold equity etc

In those $1 tournies i just nit it up and i'd probably shove TT+ and AQ+ from that position. I could work it out using Sklankey's unexploitable shoves, but i haven't got the print out.

i usually avoid going all in unless i have AA ,KK or maybe AK,QQ,JJ(depending on my stack)cuz then i will depend on luck more then skill ;in your situation i will not gone all in because u should think they will call u with better hands then A 10,but as beefcake sad if you felt like this was the best hand you've seen in a while it's not all that bad

It was a stupid all in. I would advise you just to make a small raise with that hand just to try and figure out what your opponent has. Then on the flop you can try to steal the pot, but if your opponent calls I would advise you to check the turn if you don't catch anything. Now, if you both check the turn and you still haven't caught anything. You might want to fire another bet, but be careful if you use this method because there are a lot of players that will try to fish you in.

I personally like to wait for a better hand(AJ).you are at the bottom a "yellow zone" which means that you no longer have the option to play conservitve poker and you have to use inflection play to stay alive in a tourney. I would not push all in, because of the simple fact that you are in early position still, and you are still yellow zone, so your not exactly desperate. Plus you have no idea if you have the best hand or not with many people yet to act. Someone from a later position would have to respect the "gap concept" indroduced my david skalansky, which say that you need a stronger hand to call a raise than you do to make a raise. So they would call only with hands that are better than AT unless they are unexperienced. I would make a standard raise of 4-5X the BB, and try to to narrow the field, about 12- 1500 in this spot, if you get a caller that checks to you on the flop, put out a c-bet about 1/3 the pot about 900, if they raise, let the hand go, if they call and check on the turn then check yourself if they have been trapping, if it appears they missed their draw and check, just check it down if you havn't hit anything, you dont want to get check-raised on the riv. If he value bets on the riv. I would consider laying the hand down unless you have very strong reason to think your opponent is bluffing, then you can call down with an ace high (he migh have a weaker ace, or KQ and didn't hit, but unlikely) You might still have a chance later to push with a better spot, albeit not that great of a chance, but you don't wanna go out on ace high when your opponent is betting into you, and has shown strength. You want to have position on the person who calls, and that is unlikely given that your in third position. You are able to see how they play their hand, which gives you more of an edge to interpret what it means, otherwise you have to bet to get information. Another thing is that if they check on the flop, and it flops rainbow with a high card, and no pair, check on the flop and make a value bet on the turn if a similar suite of the flop came on the turn so as it looks as like your representing the high card and trying to prevent a flush draw.

its not a stupid all in; its gamble or try and wait for something but with under 10BB chances are slim

the problem with a raise is that the villian is likely to re-raise him all-in pf or if he goes all in, the villan is getting about 4-1 or less depending on the amount in the pot already

Disagree
You're going to be raising here preflop on such a small stack? I think shove is better than raise & I think this is a good question because it is a borderline situation and as you've mentioned here yourself, it is also largely player dependent.
I played pretty tight on the bubble of a tourney on the weekend, was sitting in 3rd of 7 left, Top6 got paid, I wake up with AQs in CO and shove. BB who has only 700 more chips than me (on stacks at around 8K) calls me with 3-3?? Puts his tourney life on the line when there's two smaller stacks on the table right on the bubble. Terrible play imo. But he flops a 3 of course, lol... BOOM... I'm outta there.
Some players will call really light in the weirdest of situations. More often than not you can get a read on player's calling ranges by the way they've been playing other hands earlier on (ie. guys playing A-rag in mid levels like it's the nuts; or flatting in SB with marginal holding when blinds are getting high, etc.).
Tough break that LP woke up with AQ here. I think the AT shove is marginal. I might've folded... might've shoved... depends. Good question!

i think you could have waited, and gone one more blind. you may have picked up a better hand.

but i don't mind the shove with A 10 in this spot.

This wasn't a stupid shove. Far from it.

He has 3970. Blinds are 200/400. So his M is about 6. That's bordering on desperate to me.

To those suggesting he raise normally, let's look at that. Suppose he raises 3x (1200) and gets called. Now there's at least 2400 in the pot (could be more depending on who made the call) and he has 2770 left. He's pretty much commited to this pot. WHat's he going to do? Fold if he misses? Then have an M of 4? That makes no sense.

Plus all the large stacks were behind him. A raise of 1200 is barely 10% of their stack. Where's the fold equity? at least an all in of 3970 might be big enough to hurt their stack should they lose.

Another thing is large stacks tend to spew chips like it's their job to knock someone out so their calling range is very wide. They'd take a chance calling with a smaller Ace than A10 or kQ or something like that. So the chances of him being dominated aren't that great.

Also there were only four people left to act in the hand. Yeah pushing A10 with say nine to act is asking for trouble but with only four people left to act, the chances were high he had the best hand. He was really unlucky that one of the four left to act woke up with a higher A.

With all those factors in play, it was a great shove. When was he supposed to make a move? When the blinds jump his M decreases. Are you sure he's going to get a better hand than A10 to make a move with?

N2KFACTOR, you played it perfectly. You did absolutely nothing wrong.

To me you have done nothing wrong. You were just a little unlucky to get called by a hand that was dominating you. I also agree with what Shylax is saying about you raising because you are pretty much pot committed especially with the blinds coming up quickly.

To me you had 2 other options, call and hope to see cheap flop and try to push everyone off with an all-in on the flop (not always the best tactic) or fold and wait for a better hand.

To me it was either all-in or fold.

The Muppetteer

its close

I have to agree with Shylax on this one. Your position to push wasn't great but when you're getting short stacked you can't always wait for the perfect hand and spot to push. If you would have done a normal raise and the flop had not hit you you would have been even more crippled so I think your decision was a good one.

I would have waited rather than shove with this. If you are going all in you want a caller rather than just to steal the blinds and I think there were too many players still to come with big pots who could easily have had better hands. This proved to be the case. I do agree that you need to take the risk when short stacked but I don't think you were at that stage.

[quote=Michelle5000;1154630]Massive leak, like Brann said.

You can push 10bb or less SB vs BB

Maybe the button.

But from the CO that is pretty bad.

even if your called by some donk, your at best a 60/40 dog.

I totally disagree.... in a big way.
Waiting til you're less than 10.. only from SBvBB??... Shoving from CO isn't bad at all here... and doing so on a stack size like this.. 'should' just give you some more fold equity (AND... nobody 'should' be calling here where he's going to be a 60/40.. ie. K9, etc....please).

I think thats ok. You had very few chips and half of the players folded before u. Nobody made a mistake. Cards decided the rest.

The one thing I have to disagree with is saying its a better all in if thats the best hand you had seen in a while. NO. Don't think that way at all. You could have crap hands 30 times in a row and then K10 is the best you see, so you push? No way.

But I have to say depending on the table and my reads on them I might go all in here, trying to steal the blinds. But you gotta stay a way from the bad run of cards making you think your mediocre hands are better.

I don't agree with the 10 BBs you gotta push. I agree with Michelle once your M goes below 5 you have to be looking to push any decent hand but before that you shouldn't just push any old ace or king rag. M is better because it tells you how many times around the table you can last at the current level if you just sat out. Its better than just how many BBs because it takes into account the SB and antes also. M = chip stack / (BB + SB + (ante * players on table)) I believe.

What kind of tourney was this? If it was a freeroll then maybe better to wait for a hand like 89suited or a low pair, as people at this stage start to get really nitty, and will fold unless they have AJ+ or JJ+.
Your equity is in other words kind of bad if someone calls your all in, and your fold equity is not the best, as you are pushing from off position.
If its a bigger tourney its a different matter, as people would call you with hands like KQ or 88, that dont have you dominated.
There are other things to take into account as well. What kind of player is the BB? How short are the players behind you?

I hate all ins with AT ... you only ever get called by hands that dominate you (AA AK AQ AJ). I think its better to shove with any two cards like low suited connectors if you're really getting desperate at least you might suck out with 2 pair or trips or a straight. Those or solid pocket pairs obviously.

M=7-ish
Don't have much of a choice. Shove an pray. What is the point of raising? If someone re-raises you're going all-in anyway. Even if you wait one more round and manage to find a premium hand and double up ,you are still going to be in rough shape (M=10-ish).

BAD ALL IN ,
YOU CAN LOOSE IN LOT OF CARDS , for example AJ,AQ,AK , AA, KK , QQ, JJ, KQ,QJ ,,, IN THIS CASE with flop to AA,AK,AQ,AJ ...... ONLY CALL a big blind ,,
is better option .

This is something i've always wondered about. I play pretty timid in those freerolls and sng's because i don't have all the experience in the world and especially in the freerolls, i find myself, eventually, pretty low on chips. There's usually 1 or 2 enemies at the table that are more than happy to raise pre-flop anyway to bully lower stacks, they're the same ones that call/raise every betting round. So I know I only have one more hand at best, because it's eventually going to take all in action. In my short-lived experience, it seems when you're insanely low, anyone will call, when you only have a few blinds left, and AA, KK, JJ, always seem to get beat when you're low...so I just pray

Okay so don't listen to bobboss cause that's just not true. Actually, the LAST thing you want to do here is just call with that low of an "M"

Ship in and hope for a win or at least blind $
You did nothing wrong

What hand?

AA KK that would be nice, but probably wont come.

99?

TT?

AJ?

AK .. would be nice.. but realistically??

When shoving 10 BB, you actually welcome a call from any hand.

10 BB is short enough that you will get looked up often, but large enough that a double up will be useful.

Lets say he waits 3 orbits for a better hand... losing 1.5 BB per orbit. He now has 5.5BB and lets say he doubles up.

He now holds 11BB and is probably very close to the next level, wheer all of his hard work and discipline pays off by halving his stack because of the blinds being raised.

Playing tighter is just treading water. You might just make it into the money, or maybe go out a few places higher, but you are not playing in a manner which is putting you in a position to place high or win.

i like the allin but not the cards. you got to keep in mind the types of hands that call you. i dont generally play AT so i wouldnt shove w/it. i dont change the hands a play too much just how i play them. i shove 56s here all day long.

this shove was totally fine..

like stu said what else would you be waiting for to shove with?

very unrealistically you would get a huge hand so this was a great shove imo....just unlucky you ran into AQ and even unluckier you didn hit your 10 lol

Hi Ted, what you're explaining here is exactly what you don't want to be doing in a SNG. You definitely cannot just sit back and wait for monster hands while you blind out. Even if you do get dealt QQ with 3bb's left, you will get called 100% of the time as your opponent will be priced in to do so and if there's been a preflop raiser, you might even get a bigstack on the blinds checking it down with the raiser to KO you from the game. You absolutely MUST be getting your chips in while you're still sitting on a min. (in most cases) of 8-10bb's. You can shove much more wide in this circumstance (but with some guidelines of course) as you will still have some FOLD EQUITY. Opponent's will have to have a tighter range with which to call your shove as they will be potentially be taking a crippling blow if they do call your shove & lose. Also on this note, shove A.I. with all of your range (monsters included.. it is a sure giveaway if you've been shoving and then all of a sudden only fire out a min-raise w AA & KK). By shoving your monsters it'll help to disguise your hand strength and say if you've been shoving AI a few times already and then wake up with AA and shove it AI again... good chance you will now get called and double up on your way into the money.
Hope this made a bit of sense to you.... as I'm unable to really even begin outlining key objectives and SNG principles in such a short space.
GL on the tables! (letting oneself get blinded out in a SNG is a HUGE blunder!!)

^^thanks, i've learned there's no use trying to sneak into any hand, especially at that point in a sng, and you gotta just shove. and i've learned to shove sooner than i was. instead of getting 2 or more callers, i might get one, those are better odds. its hard to just let go sometimes though. when things get nearing desperate, what hands should still be considered no-no's?

This depends on position and fold equity, too.

I don't like overgeneralizing but I tend to cast away any unsuited, unconnected rags at this stage.