Advice Required! How to play with table full of donkeys?

Hello kind people of Cardschat,

Though I consider myself an adequately educated poker player, I am having trouble playing in an online table full of donks, odd as it may sound.

Can anyone shed some advice on how to play against people who will

1. Chase flushes at any cost (and hits)
2. Call my pre-flop raises with junk (and hits)
3. Slowplays monster hands with short stacks

The only thing I think I'm doing wrong is to play at stakes too low, allowing all these things to happen, but who's to say that the same thing won't happen in higher stakes?

Any advice here would be much appreciated.

Only 63 more posts to go for the freeroll club, you can do it!!

Lmao.



To answer your question OP

If you are surrounded by donks then STAY there if you are good you will win in the long run and if your not well then STAY there and let me know where you are.

rofl

Hate to break it to you.....but if you're having trouble beating the donks....you IS one.

If this is serious question..... bet for value....bet BIG for value....pretty much all there is to beating the micros. Forget fancy plays, forget bluffing (except CB), if someone is floating your big value bets until river and shoves, you're beat.

The difference in winning or losing at these tables where hardly anyone folds is how good/bad you are running. If you’re running good, you’ll win big. If you’re running bad, you’ll lose big.

I disagree with this a little bit. Key is, as you said, hardly anyone folds. Knowing that you should almost always be able to win over a decent sample size since you'll only be playing quality cards and betting the crap out of them when you make big hands. When they don't improve, get out of the hand cheaply. So, I think its more accurate to say that you'll win big when running good and lose small when running bad for a net pretty good win-rate.

Just tighten up and play the good hands against them. If you do that then you should be just fine. You will get out drawn from time to time but as long as you do not try and out play a moron then the moron will lose.

Listen, here's the thing.
Even if you can spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, you still might be a sucker.

This is really the only good info in the post so far. In many cases, you need to play the opposite of the majority of your opponents... if most of them are extremely loose, then tighten up. If you're at a table full of nits, loosen up. In this situation, chances are you might be playing too many hands. Sure, they are still going to suck out on your every now and then, but that will happen no matter what the stakes. I do not suggest moving up in stakes where they will respect your raises, because if you're at the micros, you likely have much bigger leaks that higher stakes will exploit you. Also, what are you losing with? I see many new members all of the time complaining about how they lose to a rivered flush, but all they had was top pair, which would be losing that hand to much more than just the rivered flush.

Again: They wont always hit...yes, sometimes it really seems like they do, but know, they don't. The trick is to make them "pay" to see the next card. If they hit, don't feel obligated to pay to see that they really did. If you hit a boat while they're chasing the flush, really really make them pay...because they will...the whole idea here being make more when they don't hit, than you pay out when they do hit.

They wont always hit...yes, sometimes it really seems like they do, but know, they don't. Again. make them pay when you hit, don't be too afraid to throw your pp jacks when they flop comes out A,2,Q and they start betting like nuts...yeah, they called 3BB pre flop with Q2os...yeah they flopped a miracle..just don't become the donkey paying to see whether or not the third J will show by the river...let them fight it out with other donkey who also called you pf, but with called T2 sooooted and is now chasing a runner-runner flush...save your $$$ for your AA vs. Q2 with the same flop and hope for another 2 so the guy with T2 sooted feels the need to pay you off as well

ummmmm...guilty as charged here...if I know your aggressive, and I know you over bet your continuation bets, and I flop a monster, guaranteed I'll check-raise you...and nothing personal here, cause I'd check-raise my own mom

Also you don't mention whether this is tourney or cash... if it's cash be sure to keep your stack healthy so you can make em pay dearly when they're drawing dead but don't even know it...

Last night, after the turn, some donk went all in and I knew he had nothing. A King and Jack were on the board and I knew he had Ace and something else. I had King/Jack off suit. Well he hits a queen on the river and shows Ace/Ten. I was livid. I lost in a similar bad beat in a freeroll 2 hours before that. I have progressed very far as a poker player over the past 6 weeks but even now, some donk comes out of no where and donks his way to getting all my chips. You have to learn to maintain your center despite the variance among all the donks. Because once you become a much more disciplined player, then you can move up in your game. I feel your pain but just maintain composure, don't let it get to you, and get ready to swing again.

You were a 91% favorite to win the hand, nothing to get upset about, you got it in good. Just remember, that 91% does not mean you are guaranteed anything. Same thing I tell people that complain about losing with AA preflop. Even to a 72o it's only ~87% to win, nothing is guaranteed.

Absolut, I hear what you're saying but no real player would ever go all-in on that hand. It was pure donk luck. If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't go all-in, I'd check and fold to a bet. I think the main issue behind this thread is that donks take uncalculated risks and when they win, we all get pissed off whereas real players make calculated risks and when they lose to a donk, it's infuriating.

I agree that is is annoying, and I really don't know what the exact layout of the hand is with no hand history. Believe me, I am in no way saying that the guy that you were playing was intelligent in his reasoning for why to make that move, but I can also tell you, that without seeing the hand history or knowing your or his playing styles, that a pro would make that move in some situations with that board. Not looking to hit, but to bluff you out. I'm sorry to say, but in freerolls and the stakes that you're playing, you will see these situations over and over, but in the long run, if you're getting it in like you did, you're going to be coming out on the winning end in the long run.

What I mean is that when you are running bad, the outters will hit with high frequency. And if you are betting hard, that means you lose your stack.

Case in point, a couple of recent FT hands. I had AK vs. a guy who turned out to have 85. I hit a K, he hit an 8. He comes over the top of my bet, I call. The river is a 5. I lose it all.

FT, I had QQ, the guy had A5. He hits a 5 plus a gutshot straight draw. All in. Hits runner runner flush.

Anyway, these may not be 2 outter bad beats, but when running bad, you are gonna lose a lot. Maybe it's the FT magic, but I've never had an extended (like a week) good run there. Elsewhere, I've had much better success. The frequency of underdogs catching outs tends to be closer to what they "should" be.

I didn't see what stakes you play at or if you play Full Ring or 6max.

This advice is most pertinent to 2nl full ring; BE ADVISED THAT THIS ADVICE IS A LITTLE ON THE GENERIC SIDE AND THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE.

A nitty style can be successful in the micros if you are disciplined. The number one enemy the nit has is refusing to let go of overpairs and Top Pairs. This is usually because the nit develops a sense of entitlement thinking they should be rewarded for patiently folding 80%+ of the time. The cure for that is; Play nitty in EP but loosen up in late position and especially on the button. By having a very wide range in LP and a very tight range in EP you offer less implied odds, get a chance to play more hands and make more money.

If you are playing 2nl I can give you the basics;


set your auto top up to on and always buy in for 100bb.

Opening hand range:

UTG, UTG+1: Any pocket pair, AK.AQ

MP: same as above plus AJ, KQ

LP: same as above plus any 2 Broadway, any suited Ace, K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+,suited connectors 65s+, suited gappers 86s+

Button: same as above plus any Ace and any two offsuit cards 8 or better.

If the pot is opened in front of you re-raise with AA KK QQ AK, flat call with AQs, AJs and all pps JJ-22. Fold weaker Aces and kings and suited connectors.

if you are re-raised and out of position shove with AA KK QQ fold everything else.

If a pot is raised and re-raised before the action gets to you fold everything but AA KK and shove these.

If you are on the button and an EP ior MP player open raises and no one calls you can add AK and KQs to the hands you flat with listed above.

If you are on the button and the blinds 3bet your open raise flat call AA KK QQ JJ AK, fold rest.


postflop:

c-betting; you want to c-bet almost every time except;

1. you have a small pp or suited connectors and the flop has two or more broadways and you have no flush draw.
2. you have two broadways and the flop is low and very wet like 9d8d6c and you don't have a flush draw. This includes having AK, no sense in betting you won't get a fold.
3. remember any pocket pair below QQ is mainly played for set value so if you don't flop a set and your c-bet gets called do not fire another barrell on the turn.

the best flops to c-bet are an Ace or one Face card with two cards 9 or lower.

c-bet amt; dry boards 1/2 pot, wet boards 3/4 bet, strong made hand like
TPTK, an overpair or set on a wet board; pot sized bet.

what to do if re-raised on the flop;

1. If you have an overpair or top pair top kicker or top 2 pair or a set on a dry board call unless it is a shove.
2. If villain shoves on the at 2nl call with top 2, sets, AA and KK on non Ace flops. Sometimes
3. If the board is wet do the same as above except if you have a set or a straight on a 4flush board, then shove.
4. Fold all other hands on the flop to a re-raise.
5. Do not try and get cute and re-raise with nut flush draws, you need fold equity to make this +EV and at 2nl you don't have much FE.

on the turn;

1. if you still are likely to have best hand and the turn card is not likely to have completed opponent's draw bet 1/2 pot.
2. if you pick up additional equity on the turn like a flush draw, OESD or pair bet 1/2 pot, never check here. You want value added to the pot when you complete your draw and will also get folds on the turn.
3. If you are re-raised on the turn fold ALL single pair hands including AA.
4. If you have an OESD or Flush draw on the flop and the turn is a brick fold to a large bet DO NOT CHASE DRAWS TO THE RIVER WITHOUT POT ODDS!!!!!!! This is how poker players go broke.

on the river.

1. If you have the nuts on the river bet as big as you think opponent will call but at least 1/2 pot.
2. Otherwise if you are unsure if your hand is best make a 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet on the river. You will get lots of folds and calls with worse hands. If you get re-raised here you should fold everything but the nuts or a set on a non straight/ flush board. This includes single pair hands, and any 2 pair hand that is not top 2.
3. If opponent shoves on the river fold anything but nut flushes or straights and sets on a non-straight/flush board.

Here ya go: http://www.cardschat.com/f46/rigged-...s-lead-181855/ (http://www.cardschat.com/f46/rigged-megathread-all-rigged-roads-lead-181855/)

Play extra tight and then get the money in good and they will pay you off. Patience is the key, but there's no reason you shoulden't show a profit if you're playing basic ABC poker and these donks keep throwing their money around. It's just standard varience.It's hard to accept and belive you're not being sucked out all the time, but it's just because you tend to remember the suck outs and don't remember pots you won without showdown and pots you won at showdown.

Blueskies: They don't hit more often than they should. They hit the same as the odds dictate they hit. Bash out 1million hands and check your stats agaisn't these donks, I gurantee you if they keep shoving like they are doing you will be massively ahead 1million hands later!

GL

Thanks fx for an informative post, but one thing I'd like you to come back on. When you say:-

What size bet are you opening with? 3-4xbb?

Also when you say 'amt', what does that mean?

I open with 2.5-3xBB depending on how I have analyzed the table, usually 3, but if I've got a really strong hand, I might up it a little because they never notice the difference. "Edit: I also add a BB for every limper"

Also, amt = amount.

1.) yea 3-4xbb is standard add a bb for every limper

2.) amount? maybe not sure

Ham beat me^^

Default preflop bet for micros is 4xbb + 1bb for each limper. If you have a real calling station; (VPIP 60%+) then increase open amt to 7bb and if they keep calling then increase to 10bb. If they keep calling 10bb pf bets make it 20bb for AA KK QQ JJ & AK and 10bb for everything else. Trust me they won't even notice that you are raising more with premium starting hands.

amt = amount.

The majority of the time the open isn't 4BB at 10NL like it is at 2NL and even a little at 5NL, maybe that is one area where the two levels are a little different. But the standard open at 10NL is 3x.

I guess stakes were never really discussed...

I agree with this. Keep in mind that while the donkeys are throwing their money around and you're playing tight, you're not going to get many hands that are worth playing in the frequent multiway pots. As a result, you may be sitting with close to your original chip stack as the bubble approaches while the donkeys that got lucky have built up large stacks. But if the table is truly full of donkeys then this will happen while the blinds are still managable. At this point, several things will be different from the start of the tournament:

• the donkeys will tighten up because they don't want to bust out before the bubble
• your table image will be very tight, so your raises and c-bets will get some respect even from the donkeys.
• fewer players means fewer multiway pots so you will have more opportunities for heads-up hands and blind steals.

So now you can work your way back into contention a little at a time and beat them with skillful play (and maybe a little luck)

Thanks again. One more question relating to position. I'm not sure how the SB and BB fit into the opening hands.

Preflop on a 9 handed table for example, we have UTG and UTG+1 and then perhaps MP are the next 2 along and then LP are what, HJ and CO? Then we have the button, so what are the blinds called/doing in relation to your opening hand range above?

Man, that is one hell of a great post. I vote for a repost in its own thread so this can be stickied.

It's hard to give advice on Blind play but a few things; if you are in the SB and it is limped multi-way it is ok just to complete with 22-77 plus weak suited Aces (just bear in mind you can't try to push someone around with top pair, you're looking for a flush draw so if you have As3s and the flop comes down AhKh7c don't think you can hold on if villain is pushing at you). If you have 88-AA,AK AQ go ahead and pop it. IF the pot is raised you should 3bet TT+, AK and fold everything else. If it is folded to you in the small blind I would raise anything in my button opening range. Never limp in SB vs BB.
In the BB If I am last to act in a raised pot I will flat with small pocket pairs to set mine. Otherwise 3bet TT+, AK and fold the rest. If it is limped and you don't raise because you have junk, don't be willing to stack off when you flop Top and Bottom pair because you have K3 on a KT3 board. Take one shot at the pot immediately but fold to pressure on the turn. It is easy to catch a corner of the flop when you limped from the BB but this is a surefire way to spew if you start chasing weak draws or can't fold when you're obviously beat.
When in the blinds, if the button raises don't be tempted to 3bet bluff if the button won't fold. If the button limps don't raise hands like AT KJ just limp behind. If villain on button is super loose you might 3bet AQ, AJ maybe KQ but if he is the type to stack off with top pair any kicker you can sometimes flat AA KK QQ JJ AK,especially if they open raise wide but fold to 3bets easily.
A lot of this advice would seem like rubbish to advanced players like WV,Stu or Belgo but bear in mind, if you are playing 2nl your postflop skills are probably highly undeveloped and until you have internalized your equity against a villain's assumed range and can really dance between teardrops you need to sometimes perform rough surgery. It is better for a novice player to fold the winning hand and sacrifice a few chips then to stack off foolishly. If you stack off once in 100 hands it drags your BB/100 down by one half point. If you do it twice it decreases it by one BB. Getting stacked is a big drain on your bankroll. It's ok when you get stacked when you were a big favorite and got sucked out on but to get stacked because you over valued your hand or misread your opponent's actions and/or the board texture it becomes very costly.

G R U N C H


There are 2 approaches that can be taken against known bad players.

1) Gamble in more marginal situations and bet weaker hands for value

2) Wait for something to stack them with and cut out bluffs etc.

FX,

Kudos for the great posts ITT. If I can suggest two ideas for your basics of beating 2nl post:

1. Don't c-bet air into two or more players. If more than one person called your pre flop raise the odds of someone hitting the flop go up a lot.

2. When calling raises with small pocket pairs watch your opponents stack sizes. If you are calling just to set mine you need them to have a deep stack say 100bb or so.

I for one am nominating your posts, this thread (whatever works) for sticky heaven. Great stuff.

4 out of 5 times.. a donk will make a flush or a straight or atleast 2 pair.
the knowledge u have in poker is inversely proportional for your draws to make a flush or straight :P

That's a fact eh?

some good advice over here and i'm gonna add an average one:

Don't waste your time on the standard freerolls (not talking about private ones) your chance to cash in those is often under 1%(full tilt 7500 ones) and no matter how good you play you will get sucked out on and all you need is one bad beat to get you out...
Making good plays will see you being the winner in the long run in cash games and SNGs but that's not the same for huge MTTs where you have to get through 10000 donks and u know all of them are fishing one of them is gonna catch.(well, unless u like winning pennies without taking a risk in which case u'll win one of those every 100 tournies)

The blinds are folding most of the time .