Self Analysis of a Standard Misplayed Hand

This is the hand I crippled myself with in the Sunday Tilt buy-in. It's nothing spectacular but in the spirit of improvement, I'm putting it out there.

I'm in an awkward place in my learning where I'm trying to play less tight early on. Looking for the balance between only playing premiums and speculating a bit while it's cheap. This particular hand is a disaster so I've learned what doesn't work. Or re-learned. AQ is not a hand I would usually play in early position and that's a big part of the reason I'm trying it here. What I missed was getting rid of it in time. So what I want to know is if my analysis is on target. Am I learning in the right direction? If it's an obvious fold, I can go back to that. Having a hard time deciding what's worth speculating with, I guess.


full tilt poker Game #3783231602: Cardschat.com $100 Added (25992670), Table 4 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:22:34 ET - 2007/10/07

Seat 1: joker131 (1,410)
Seat 2: 101bassman (850)
Seat 3: endgame333 (1,620)
Seat 4: TrentsMomm (1,450)
Seat 5: bubbasbestbabe (1,300), is sitting out
Seat 6: Jamile100 (1,880)
Seat 7: bobbyjoeblue (1,550)
Seat 8: beardyian (1,130)
Seat 9: RollinLow (5,130)
101bassman posts the small blind of 25
endgame333 posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bobbyjoeblue [Qc Ac]

my first instinct is to fold this but since I'm specifically working on loosening up I decide to try to see a flop cheap.

TrentsMomm calls 50
bubbasbestbabe folds
Jamile100 calls 50
bobbyjoeblue has 15 seconds left to act
bobbyjoeblue calls 50
beardyian folds
RollinLow folds
joker131 has 15 seconds left to act
joker131 raises to 200

I've sat with Joker at several tables and my thinking is he makes a raise here, regardless. I've noticed he often has a healthy stack early on so I think his range is pretty wide. 88+, a good ace, decent paint are definitely possible. I don't think of him as particularly loose but lesser holdings are also possible because I think he's confident I'll lay it down to a largish bet at this blind level.

101bassman folds
endgame333 folds
TrentsMomm has 15 seconds left to act
XtReMe CaLiBuR (Observer): how we doin over here bubba?
TrentsMomm folds
Jamile100 has 15 seconds left to act
Jamile100 folds
bobbyjoeblue has 15 seconds left to act
bobbyjoeblue raises to 500

So I reraise and hope my read is good.

joker131 has 15 seconds left to act
XtReMe CaLiBuR (Observer): i hope you dont look like dat in real life...
joker131 raises to 1,410, and is all in

But then he goes and does this. Telling me loud and clear he thinks he's got me beat. I can't hear him over my stubborn insistence that my move is going to pay off. If I'd taken a moment, I would have recognized the truth -- he's not risking his tourney life this early on bad goods. Have I seen him do that? No.

bobbyjoeblue calls 910

Bleh. Just Bleh.

beardyian: weeeeeeeeeeeeee (reference to a sporting event, not the hand

joker131 shows [Kh Kc]
bobbyjoeblue shows [Qc Ac]
*** FLOP *** [Qs Jh 2h]
*** TURN *** [Qs Jh 2h] 4♠
*** RIVER *** [Qs Jh 2h 4s] 9♠
joker131 shows a pair of Kings
bobbyjoeblue shows a pair of Queens
joker131 wins the pot (2,995) with a pair of Kings

rainsoaked said:

my first instinct is to fold this but since I'm specifically working on loosening up I decide to try to see a flop cheap.

Click to expand...

I can empathize, but reraising is not a good way to see a cheap flop.

Insomniac_1006 said:

I can empathize, but reraising is not a good way to see a cheap flop.

Click to expand...

Cheap was meant to refer to the limp, but point taken.

ok.
1. don't open limp. AQ is a big hand, not one I can see folding, even in early position. But you have to understand how to play it. It's similar to AK, with it's value being preflop (read my post here on AK). You want to raise here, then c-bet vs. one opponent who called, and take it down (or get called down by a weaker ace when you both hit). If that's not the situation that develops, you might be in trouble.

2. your initial read on joker is way off. I'll just say that when a player like this puts in a "real" raise (3x bb +1 bb for each limper) they have the goods, especially when he three bets (and you after you limp reraised, which usually tells someone you have a legit hand).

AG has it right, as usual.

You raise that hand middle position, if first to get the opportunity to raise.

In this case more than likely Joker will reraise, and you should probably be inclined to fold. You took your shot at the almost real semi-bluff, and ran into a wall. Fall to the ground like a water balloon against that said wall.

Yes, if you have regularly been folding AQ even in early position, you may be playing a wee bit to tight.

Thanks guys. This is what I needed to hear. I'd already been clued in that I was folding too many playable hands. Lot of work ahead of me, opening up, then figuring out what to do with 'em post-flop.....then finding my way through the woods all over again.
Thanks for the link to the AK post, AG. I think a bulb went off. Or at least flickered

AQ is a hand worth playing in middle position as you are here, but as has been said, you need to raise the limpers and show that you've got a hand. Especially with the level of competition here.

Since you didn't show strength, the raise in position could be a limp steal/aka punish the limpers so I don't mind the reraise, but after the re-re-raise you need to have AA/KK to continue.


I can empathise with you; I've been working on adding aggression but have problems with it in situations just like this. When my aggression is met with aggression it usually triggers me losing my stack.

Ok so, as a very general guide, it's a hand to raise with. And to get away from if I meet too much resistance or have an idea I'm not in a very good place with it.
Example: Limp, limp, I raise 3x-3.5x from middle, button calls, others fold.
Flop comes QJ2
Pot's 475 (I think)
I C-Bet -- 300 maybe?
Button re-raises
I get out of the way.

But if the button just calls and the turn is an apparently harmless 4 then I..........check the turn and see what he does. Maybe, but if I do that, I don't really know where I am and might have to get out of the way if he bets. I haven't lost much but I suspect I've missed an opportunity (yes? no?)

So, assuming he calls and I'm first to act and I don't check, the pot is 1075 and I've got 1055 behind, he's got slightly less. I have to think I'll be putting all my chips at risk on top pair, top kicker with one card to come. All I've got is the 3 remaining aces and 2 queens. 8:1 and I'm looking at risking 1000+ to gain 2900'ish so a little under 3:1.....

It begins to look to me like I should have folded pre-flop. No, wait! Make it a pot or near pot c-bet on the flop and if opponent plays back, fold. It's early, I still have a reasonable stack, and can rebuild from there.

Am I getting close?

rainsoaked said:

Ok so, as a very general guide, it's a hand to raise with. And to get away from if I meet too much resistance or have an idea I'm not in a very good place with it.
Example: Limp, limp, I raise 3x-3.5x from middle, button calls, others fold.
Flop comes QJ2
Pot's 475 (I think)
I C-Bet -- 300 maybe?
Button re-raises
I get out of the way.

But if the button just calls and the turn is an apparently harmless 4 then I..........check the turn and see what he does. Maybe, but if I do that, I don't really know where I am and might have to get out of the way if he bets. I haven't lost much but I suspect I've missed an opportunity (yes? no?)

So, assuming he calls and I'm first to act and I don't check, the pot is 1075 and I've got 1055 behind, he's got slightly less. I have to think I'll be putting all my chips at risk on top pair, top kicker with one card to come. All I've got is the 3 remaining aces and 2 queens. 8:1 and I'm looking at risking 1000+ to gain 2900'ish so a little under 3:1.....

It begins to look to me like I should have folded pre-flop. No, wait! Make it a pot or near pot c-bet on the flop and if opponent plays back, fold. It's early, I still have a reasonable stack, and can rebuild from there.

Am I getting close?

Click to expand...

You are stating to see the value of position here, perhaps (?)-- sucks being first doesn't it?

A lot of your decision is going to come from your read of your opponent, and his range of hands.

If it's BBB (for example) re-raising you when you have tptk, you are probably going to have to call a lot more than if it's a more passive foe. Same with the call behind: it could be a draw like KT (or would this foe raise in position w the oesd?), or it could be someone who can't fold AJ (or wants to see what you do on the turn). Depending on stack sizes and flop texture you could check to keep the pot small, intending to call on the river, or you could fire a second bullet "knowing" your opponent is likely to have a draw. IT ALL DEPENDS!

Now you're playing poker kid... fun huh?

Poker.
Heh.
Damndest thing I ever got myself into.
Can't quit her 'cause I love her.

my head ahsplodes

ps: I love that you called me kid, AG. Matter of fact, I'll probably love you forever now. But not in a creepy cougar way

Oh but duh -- now the next question. I'm guessing I don't just go back to laying these types of hands down (the easy, too tight way). But learn to hit hard or get out, depending. Yes?

rainsoaked said:

Oh but duh -- now the next question. I'm guessing I don't just go back to laying these types of hands down (the easy, too tight way). But learn to hit hard or get out, depending. Yes?

Click to expand...

Well, you don't necessarily have to hit that hard-- a lot of times you will just take it down w a c-bet vs. one opponent whether you hit or not, or the situation won't really be that complicated (dry board, passive player just calls you down when you're in position with his weaker queen).

But yeah, I don't think you should be folding AQo utg as a matter of course.


ps