Big Slick, early in MTT.

Bit of a recurring theme for me. I think if I were to check back, more than one of my HA threads has been about playing AK.

A challenging hand to play well, I`d suggest. One of the strongest you could hope to be dealt, but fatal if overplayed in the wrong spot.

Ah well, down to business....

It`s the first level and I was switched to this table only a couple of hands ago. I don`t recognise any of the other players and I have no reads.


***** Hand History for Game 1691404208 *****
$2000.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, August 22, 08:15:54 ET 2008
Table 6 196145723 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: GRANGANADOR ( $2350.00 USD )
Seat 2: jonijoo ( $1490.00 USD )
Seat 3: bunken ( $1380.00 USD )
Seat 4: shin a wil ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 5: Gumbes ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 6: Kartenstaender ( $1140.00 USD )
Seat 7: Perceval1er ( $1140.00 USD )
Seat 8: ImBalex ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 9: Egon Towst ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 10: herren1349 ( $1500.00 USD )
bunken posts small blind [$10.00 USD].
shin a wil posts big blind [$20.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Egon Towst
Gumbes folds
Kartenstaender folds
Perceval1er raises [$40.00 USD]
ImBalex folds


Over to you. What are you going to do ?

I would re-raise this one to something like 100.
I don't think he has a very strong hand, because he only doubles the blind.
Looked to his stack, he already did something wrong, so maybe he's a fish.
After the pre-flop, I can't say anything about it anymore.

I 3 bet this to at least 160, probably 200. That will most likely get others out of the hand and you'll have position on the initial raiser. Early in MTT's, with everyone so deep stacked you have to size bets on percentages of the stacks and not the blinds.

i'd reraise to about 150. if he comes back over the top of you i'd just give up and fold, hes got at least JJ (that's being generous, imo).

If he flats, i'd put him on a mid-decent PP (77-JJ) or AJ+ (o or s). He's lost a fair amount of chips already so he either got sucked out or he's bad. I just don't give him a whole lot of credibility.

what does the flop bring?

I raise to at least 100, if he comes over the top of you...lay it down. another name for big slick is HIGH CARD. Chase out who you can, and see whats left. I would re raise anything less that 100 your just asking for someone to come over the top of you with 44

JustRaiseTheBlinds said:

I don't think he has a very strong hand, because he only doubles the blind.

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You may be right. However, a min-raise out of position could also be indicative of a very strong hand.

Effexor said:

Early in MTT's, with everyone so deep stacked you have to size bets on percentages of the stacks and not the blinds.

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Useful observation and very true. In the later stages, smaller raises (in terms of Big Blinds) will be effective in forcing opponents out of the pot. At this blind level, people may call a modest raise with a wide range of hands, figuring that the outlay is not very significant in terms of their total stack.

kall3_p0k3r said:

...anyway what happend after this??,what did u do??send us the rest. I need to know!!

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Patience, young Jedi.

As is always the case, we have three options. Fold, call or raise. Let`s deal with the easy one first.

It would be a clear error to call here. AK does not play well in a multiway pot. Preflop, it is approximately 65% favourite over one random hand, but only 47% (ie. a slight dog) against two and 37% against three.

There are several players still to act behind us. If we flat call, we will be asking the Big Blind to put $20 more into a $110 pot, so he will be likely to call with almost any two cards. Others may be tempted to see a flop also, depending on their holding, and we could easily finish up with a situation which will be highly unfavourable for our hand.

It is interesting that nobody wants to fold. That would be a legitimate response here. Some authorities on the game will tell you that it is correct to fold anything less than AA in the first level of an MTT. Some will even fold AA.

Additionally, this is a raised pot and, significantly, we are new at this table and have no information. That last is a major handicap.

John Vorhaus (in his book Killer Poker No Limit) advocates what he calls “breathing in” upon joining a new table during an MTT. By this, he means playing no hand (except perhaps AA or KK) during at least the first round of blinds after joining. This has two purposes. First, we take stock of the opponents before we mix it with them. Secondly (at least as important), the opponents, if they are at all smart, will be watching you. Let them form the impression that you are a tight player and must be respected. First impressions count, and this will play to your advantage later.

So, folding here is OK. But, I must admit that is rather too nitty for my taste. After all, we do have AK and, although it`s not a made hand, it does have lots of potential. Like you guys, I felt it was appropriate to raise. We continued:


Egon Towst raises [$120.00 USD]
herren1349 folds
GRANGANADOR folds
jonijoo folds
bunken folds
shin a wil folds
Perceval1er calls [$80.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop **
Perceval1er bets [$240.00 USD]


Hmm. That`s interesting.

This is the major decision point in this hand. What should we do now, and why ?

Lousy flop for you, 5 possibilities, 1/ Missed the flop and making a standard c-bet, 2/ was trying to steal with the min raise and has paired the board 3/ has an overpair to the board, 4/ has an underpair to the board and believes they are good as you reraised pre flop and he has you on 2 high cards, 5/ has made trips and is a fish as with a board like that I would slow play it. Villains bet is just under the size of the pot so I'm putting him on a high pair J's and above and I would suspect the initial min raise mid position was to induce a call or even an all in to try to build the pot as everyone had folded and he wanted more than to pick up the blinds for his high hand. Your getting 2-1 on your money to make the call but the problem is IF he has K's or A's and either turns your in real trouble. It's early in the game, I think I would let it go because all you beat right now is AQ and worse.

came into this late, so will go from PF(I know, hindsight is amazing!)
I would reraise him PF to 160, roughly, to see where you stand(will he call, reraise, or fold, pretty good indication of the range of hand he's playing).
OK, flop, absolute horrible one for you, ET, but did it hit or miss him, also?
His range could be pure bluff, any low pocket pair(thinking you were holding A-high),any mid pocket pairs(a couple have just 'setted') mid-range connectors that have hit, or are drawing, any A-rag/picture hand; or pocket tens or above, which all look good on that flop.
For me, he's either missed, and maybe slightly behind you, or level; or he's hit, slightly and he's ahead, or a big flop hit and he's way ahead. Am I risking my chips here, first level of a mtt with Ace high? Nah, i fold. And even if I had the winning hand at that point, he had outs, whatver he held. I had outs too, but dont like to gamble early.

supersem said:

I Think you must raise with this hand, he made the minimum raise so it could be that he has a big hand.
If you raise and he re-raise you, go all in and see what your hand will bring you.

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so he mini raises, you reraise and then he reraises you. Are you willing to go all in with Ace high, first round of a mtt? With the way the betting's gone, I'd put him on JJ, QQ, KK, AA. you happy with your AK?

KerouacsDog said:

so he mini raises, you reraise and then he reraises you. Are you willing to go all in with Ace high, first round of a mtt? With the way the betting's gone, I'd put him on JJ, QQ, KK, AA. you happy with your AK?

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yes why not, ak suited first hand, someone pushes you all in, why not call? AK is not a bad hand people.

I would try to slow play Ak because when i play with Ak it seems like I never hit on the flop and end up just folding any hand except for pocket pairs are good.

vpb0i said:

yes why not, ak suited first hand, someone pushes you all in, why not call? AK is not a bad hand people.

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spoken like a true FRW, hello McFly, this is a real money tourney were analysing here and going all-in with ace high is just wrong.

asianpride54 said:

I would try to slow play Ak because when i play with Ak it seems like I never hit on the flop and end up just folding any hand except for pocket pairs are good.

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Sorry but slowplaying ace high here is just sensless IMO.


But as the hand has played out, it looks as if villian has an overpair based on the size of his bet and I would fold here, nitty play?, yes, but the safest play IMO.

real money tourney?? even if this was a 20 dollar buy id still go all in preflop with AK suited if i get reraise all in, those are just vaule chips of the buy in, not like he playing 1500 dollar tourney than that wouldnt make sense.

Since you don't really have any information on this guy, I think we just lay it down and live to see another day. You could reraise, and it'd be ballsy, but at this point i think we're up against JJ-AA. If he's got much else than that, then I duno, he wins at boggling my mind.

What's the turn bring (if there is a turn)

vpb0i said:

so lets say this was a 5.50 tourney would u have fold this preflop? or ever 10? (even double stack) still fold preflop?

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I don't know where to begin with this guy.

Egon what'd ya do on the flop?

Seat 7 is probably looking for information betting 2Xs BB--Maybe holding A-Jo---or K-Qo--I'd say no lower--you could either call, letting his bet do the searching--OR--if you want info from him (and the others) I would raise maybe 4-5Xs BB---you're not going to loose a REAL lot if someone does push all in (they got a monster) and if not, you at least get to see the flop---then take it from there! Now--YOU GOTTA tell us what happened! (maybe you did at the end of the thread-I didn't look that far-didn't want to spoil the surprise! )

More.....

OK-Now that I've seen the flop (really-I didn't scroll down until now-and won't proceed until after I post!) I sill put him on A-Q or K-Qo--now it looks lie he could possably have alot better, tho--but not knowing him makes it ALOT more difficult! Sow now pot odds come into play, I think--Would it be worth my while to call--I don't want to bluff at this level (although Percy might be!?) I have to either fold or raise as calling will show doubt and a weak hand---but if I raise, he could push all in, IF he's really got something and WILL, I'm sure--and if he in fact IS holding K-Q, he's got a straight draw now--far fetched as it may be!---BUT, with the way he DID bet there's a chance he's holding pkt 10s! Now he's got a set!---That does it! I'm out a few bucks---Time to fold and save the rest for the next hand! But I'm a coward! Now I GOTTA scroll down to learn what happened! (this is a prety good book you wrote!

No Fair!!

Hey Egan! Where's the ending??? Ya GOTTA either post it or PM me--I GOTTA know!

godoy said:

I would re-raise it to at least 3x his bet, and keep pushing after the flop, because as you can see in his stack he looks like a fish

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bc stack size means a whole lot at this point, lol. he could have had a cooler before hero got to the table. we have no previous information.

RickH2005 said:

Hey Egan! Where's the ending??? Ya GOTTA either post it or PM me--I GOTTA know!

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Don`t worry, Rick. There will be more.

When I make a hand-history thread, I will generally add instalments about every 12 to 24 hours. My purpose is to allow lots of time for discussion and to encourage a good discussion to take place.

im talking about pre-flop re raise, obv fold on the flop, lets say this, he min raise to 40, you come over the top 120, then he goes all in, what would you do?

Prf i whould 3bet more since u really whant to get HU(like u did) but i whould have prefered raising to 160.


On the flop im folding this if he was a litle deeper i might consider raising since the OOP lead out is so often weak but here whe cant really raise and still get away from a push.
Floading might be an option but i dont like it since on the turn where facing a push so often,also if whe call he checks to us the pot will have 750 and if whe where to bet the turn whe have no way to get away again.
Its still early and whe have no reads and are just down 120 chips from the start. There are plenty of better spots whe can pick and i see no need to get fancy here

vpb0i said:

im talking about pre-flop re raise, obv fold on the flop, lets say this, he min raise to 40, you come over the top 120, then he goes all in, what would you do?

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Probably fold.

Pothole said:

Lousy flop for you, 5 possibilities, 1/ Missed the flop and making a standard c-bet, 2/ was trying to steal with the min raise and has paired the board 3/ has an overpair to the board, 4/ has an underpair to the board and believes they are good as you reraised pre flop and he has you on 2 high cards, 5/ has made trips and is a fish as with a board like that I would slow play it.

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Good analysis, PH.

KerouacsDog said:

With the way the betting's gone, I'd put him on JJ, QQ, KK, AA. you happy with your AK?

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shinedown.45 said:

But as the hand has played out, it looks as if villian has an overpair based on the size of his bet and I would fold here, nitty play?, yes, but the safest play IMO.

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An overpair is certainly possible, guys. I agree.

KMC1828 said:

You could reraise, and it'd be ballsy, but at this point i think we're up against JJ-AA.

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True. Are we ballsy enough ? Would it be correct to re-pop in this situation ?

Next bit comes in a few minutes (when I finish typing, lol).