$1 NLHE STT: $ NLHE STT: JJ been kicking my butt - What to do here?

kmixer · Jan 20, 2010

$1 NL HE STT: $ NL HE STT: JJ been kicking my butt - What to do here?

Seat 1 - DAXID (1,455 in chips)
Seat 2 - KMIXER (1,670 in chips)
Seat 3 - 2KIDPOKER2 (1,700 in chips)
Seat 4 - SWEETPEA82 (1,455 in chips)
Seat 5 - BLUFFER3927 (1,690 in chips)
Seat 6 - RECONNECTED (1,545 in chips)
Seat 7 - APPYLOVER (750 in chips)
Seat 8 - CHEETAWOODS (1,565 in chips)
Seat 9 - FRANK1234 (1,670 in chips)
FRANK1234 - Posts small blind 10
DAXID - Posts big blind 20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to KMIXER [Jd Js]
KMIXER - Raises 60 to 60
2KIDPOKER2 - Folds
SWEETPEA82 - Raises 210 to 210
BLUFFER3927 - Folds
RECONNECTED - Folds
APPYLOVER - Folds
CHEETAWOODS - Folds
FRANK1234 - Folds
DAXID - Folds

??????

OzExorcist · Jan 20, 2010

Specifically in a $1 STT I probably shove this. There's enough players at that level that will call with say 77+ / AT+ (and sometimes worse) that I think it's profitable. We're about 58/42 against that range FWIW.

If somehow you've got a read that the villain is definitely tighter than that then obviously play it differently and at higher stakes where the average villain isn't so awful we change our action too. But at the $1 level... yeah, I probably shove.

kmixer · Jan 20, 2010

Thanks Oz. I have been getting burned with JJ so that is why I am looking for more advice on it. Yesterday I shoved with it and came up against AA.

Will post my action on this hand in a few days. Would love more feedback.

cjatud2012 · Jan 20, 2010

The thing about this spot is that, if you call out of position, you are going to feel very hopeless when the flop hits, because there will be very few that you like. That's why everyone says JJ is a very tricky hand to play. Against some opponents, it's correct to fold, and against others, it's correct to shove. Rarely is it correct to just call, cause you're essentially trying to set mine when you do. If I were to rank your options under these conditions (early in a tournament, stacks are fairly deep, we're out of position, and we're against an unknown), I would say fold > raise >> call.

As Oz said, there is some merit to just pushing, as we will sometimes get called with worse at a $1 table. If the blinds were higher and there was more pressure to make a move, shoving becomes even more correct. In general though, I'd say it's better to be patient, even if we're folding the better hand.

c9h13no3 · Jan 21, 2010

Yeah, I kinda think that this is a fold, oddly enough. Villains at these midget stakes are generally more weak-tight. It feels wrong to fold the 4th best hand preflop, but I just don't see a lot of stuff like AK in villain's 3-bet range...

dwolfg · Jan 21, 2010

call. If flop is all less than j bet 300, but then fold to any raise(If he is bluffing with ak you'll catch him bluffin later when you have more than 1 pair). If j flops, check raise and if any over cards come check/fold.

RoTs · Jan 21, 2010

I would fold here. Only invested 60 with a stack of 1600 at 10/20 blinds avoid the early fight. You have plenty of time before push/shove mode.

kmixer · Jan 21, 2010

Loving all the advice. Actually took Oz's advice today in a SnG with 99 I did my standard 3x BB raise from middle postion after all had folded to me. I was re araised by someone a few postions (CO I think) I decided I had him stacked so I went for it and low and behold he called with 77. I was so expecting to see a high pair.

In that game from the hand example above the person that re raised my 3x raise again with the same bet so I decided I wanted to see it and re raised back all in this time with QQ and he showed AJo as he folded.

In the hand from above I did in fact fold. Ended up in the money too.

beechleaf · Jan 21, 2010

shove for a dollar 10 bucks fold

c9h13no3 · Jan 21, 2010

kmixer said:
Loving all the advice. Actually took Oz's advice today in a SnG with 99 I did my standard 3x BB raise from middle postion after all had folded to me. I was re araised by someone a few postions (CO I think) I decided I had him stacked so I went for it and low and behold he called with 77. I was so expecting to see a high pair.

Wow, okay ignore all the advice I gave about $1 SnG's.

OzExorcist · Jan 21, 2010

kmixer said:
Loving all the advice. Actually took Oz's advice today in a SnG with 99 I did my standard 3x BB raise from middle postion after all had folded to me. I was re araised by someone a few postions (CO I think) I decided I had him stacked so I went for it and low and behold he called with 77. I was so expecting to see a high pair.

In that game from the hand example above the person that re raised my 3x raise again with the same bet so I decided I wanted to see it and re raised back all in this time with QQ and he showed AJo as he folded.

In the hand from above I did in fact fold. Ended up in the money too.

Nice

I should be clear - we'll still run into big pairs here a chunk of the time, it's just been my experience at these lowest of stakes that there are enough bad players willing to call with worse hands that it can be OK to shove. It all depends on your attitude to risk, I don't think that folding in this spot is a big mistake either.

I do think calling is a big mistake though. Taking dwolfg's plan as an example, if we call we'll have committed 210 chips preflop, we'll be check-folding (or worse, bet-folding) a lot of flops and we're not guaranteed of getting paid on the ones where we do. If I was smarter I could do the chipEV calculations but I'm not so too bad.

Shoving is much better because we don't have any hard decisions on the flop where we can make "mistakes" (like folding on a Q76 flop when villain's actually holding AK) and villain can't fold when we hit / he misses. Of course we risk going broke too but if that's too much for us we should just be folding preflop, not calling.

Double-A · Jan 22, 2010

Fold.

odds aren't there to set mine and it's just too early to be shoving w/ jacks. Plenty of better opportunities await.

I guess others have said that already...

c9h13no3 said:
Wow, okay ignore all the advice I gave about $1 SnG's.

lol

dwolfg · Jan 25, 2010

Here is my reasoning for not pushing or folding preflop.

For not pushing: Yes there are a lot of players willing to call with 10s and such, but there are also players only willing to call an all in with aa kk qq or ak. It is really too early to determine what type of player opponent is. If he/she is the latter, you are in trouble.

For not folding:Folding here can cause your opponents to think that all they have to do is reraise all your raises and get you to fold. Then, in turn this will take away from your ability to steal blinds later on. Folding also can put you into a passive mindset. We all know that passive poker is poor poker.

Reason for calling/play postflop as stated:At best we flop a set or win the pot on the flop. At worst we are forced to fold and still have over 50 blinds. Also we get to see how our opponent plays postflop. We get to see what size cbet he/she makes and whether said cbet is the appropriate size mathematically given the texture of the board. We then can use this information against said opponent at a later time.

WiZZiM · Jan 26, 2010

dwolfg said:
Here is my reasoning for not pushing or folding preflop.

For not pushing: Yes there are a lot of players willing to call with 10s and such, but there are also players only willing to call an all in with aa kk qq or ak. It is really too early to determine what type of player opponent is. If he/she is the latter, you are in trouble.

For not folding:Folding here can cause your opponents to think that all they have to do is reraise all your raises and get you to fold. Then, in turn this will take away from your ability to steal blinds later on. Good, they will be risking more $$ than us... and i dont see how it could affect the shove/fold stage later on. they wont have the chance to re-steal or try and shove you into folding as we will be the ones shoving first generally speaking, not always.. and you dont want to raise hands that you have to fold to resteals to much anyways... and you shouldnt be playing a huge range of hands early in a sng anyways so you still have a tight image ready for fold equity later on...

Folding also can put you into a passive mindset. We all know that passive poker is poor poker.

Reason for calling/play postflop as stated:At best we flop a set or win the pot on the flop. At worst we are forced to fold and still have over 50 blinds. Also we get to see how our opponent plays postflop. We get to see what size cbet he/she makes and whether said cbet is the appropriate size mathematically given the texture of the board. We then can use this information against said opponent at a later time.

i think this is just a fold preflop, nothing invested, marginal spot. QQ+ i shove and AK i shove also, considering the buy in, you will get lots of weird action and loose calling early. but generally these guys tend to call bets preflopnot a lot of 3betting unless they have it generally, so i think at best your up against AK possibly AQ.

dwolfg · Jan 26, 2010

WiZZiM said:
i think this is just a fold preflop, nothing invested, marginal spot. QQ+ i shove and AK i shove also, considering the buy in, you will get lots of weird action and loose calling early. but generally these guys tend to call bets preflopnot a lot of 3betting unless they have it generally, so i think at best your up against AK possibly AQ.

Shove/fold? Im talking about the stage where you steal blinds around the bubble(4-5 people left) with less than premium hands to AVOID shove/fold situations if possible. Shove/fold stages of tournament take all skilled play out of the game and turn it into coinflips and bingo poker only. If your opponents believe they can get you to fold by re-raising every time, you won't be able to steal later on, as I said. JJ is not a wide range. I'm not afraid of loose action with a top ten hand. And at these buy-ins you can see 3 and even 4 betting with low pp or weak aces. New players see Ivey and Durr re-raising with weak hands so they think they can too.

dg1267 · Jan 27, 2010

I didn't read any of the other posts, so if it's been said, sorry.

First of all, quit worrying about what JJ has done to you in the past. And if you want to continue thinking that directions, then realize that the more you have been beaten in the past with JJ, the better your odds of winning are with it. But that's really not correct thinking.

JJ is not a bad hand, and up to this point you've done what I would've done with it. You're in early position with a good starting hand and you've raised it a good amount. Villain 3 bets it.

The pot is 300 when it gets back to you and it's HU. You have to call 150 into a 300 pot. You have 2 to 1 odds with an already made hand. I don't like being scared about villain holding QQ+ here, so I would call and, barring an overcard on the flop, I would put in a half pot-size donk bet.

edit: If villain folds, great. If villain calls, keep betting until an overcard hits or villain gets aggresive.

Double-A · Jan 27, 2010

dg1267 said:
I
The pot is 300 when it gets back to you and it's HU. You have to call 150 into a 300 pot. You have 2 to 1 odds with an already made hand. I don't like being scared about villain holding QQ+ here, so I would call and, barring an overcard on the flop, I would put in a half pot-size donk bet.

That's pretty interesting really. I see what you're saying as far as this hand goes...

but, as far as the tournament goes, we'll really just be squabbling over our initial raise. In micro STT's I think it's wise to just make every fold we can. It passes on equity, which is weak, but we will have PLENTY of opportunities to pick up chips. I think they're more about picking spots than pressing edges. At least, this early...

dg1267 · Jan 27, 2010

I used to play these tight to start off and then open up when we got down to 4-5 players. But I realized I was missing great spots. These micro MTT players will 3bet so lightly I think it's a better choice to play a few more hands than you would against decent players.

Hearing C9 say fold rather than "Insta-shove" is really odd here. I'd like to hear more about why you would say that.

WiZZiM · Jan 28, 2010

dg1267 said:
then realize that the more you have been beaten in the past with JJ, the better your odds of winning are with it. But that's really not correct thinking.

Theres no way this is correct right?? the chances of winning with JJ shouldnt change each time you play them right?? of course it matters what hands your up against and the type of opponant...the cards dont have memory do though so the chances shouldnt ever change.. but i agree that you should let past decisions influence your play..

JJ is not a bad hand, and up to this point you've done what I would've done with it. You're in early position with a good starting hand and you've raised it a good amount. Villain 3 bets it.

The pot is 300 when it gets back to you and it's HU. You have to call 150 into a 300 pot. You have 2 to 1 odds with an already made hand. I don't like being scared about villain holding QQ+ here, so I would call and, barring an overcard on the flop, I would put in a half pot-size donk bet.

personally i fold as im multitabling, i want to make my decisions easier not play a pot postflop oop with a hand that folds to overcards a decent %.. QQ and above id shove over, but jacks are slightly too weak in my opinion.. your right he could be 3betting kq here, which is a coinflip id rather not get involved in just yet.. oh and in my experience these low limit players generally dont 3bet light very often.. but that is. of course player dependant..

edit: If villain folds, great. If villain calls, keep betting until an overcard hits or villain gets aggresive.

...

WiZZiM · Jan 28, 2010

dwolfg said:
Shove/fold? Im talking about the stage where you steal blinds around the bubble(4-5 people left) with less than premium hands to AVOID shove/fold situations if possible. Shove/fold stages of tournament take all skilled play out of the game and turn it into coinflips and bingo poker only. If your opponents believe they can get you to fold by re-raising every time, you won't be able to steal later on, as I said. JJ is not a wide range. I'm not afraid of loose action with a top ten hand. And at these buy-ins you can see 3 and even 4 betting with low pp or weak aces. New players see Ivey and Durr re-raising with weak hands so they think they can too.

ok your talking about this having an affect on fold equity with stealing blinds... i just dont see how one instance where you fold early in a sng can have that big of an effect in late stages.. you should generally be playing premium holdings early on, so your table image will still be tight enough to be able to get away with stealing blinds later on... i suppose they may see you as a tight passive weak type playing and resteal, but i hardly think any of these players even know how to spell poker( to quote phill hellmuth..) let alone pick out a player who is likely to fold to a resteal..

dg1267 · Jan 28, 2010

WiZZiM, that first quoted statement is perfectly false. Each time you get a hand it has a certain percentage of winning/losing. It does not compound throughout a session to either win or lose more often. That was just for funny mainly.

And JJ in a cash game or STT I'm more likely to play strongly than in an MTT. Mainly because it is a good hand and, as long as overcards don't hit the board, it can win fairly easy. I put this out as a single, not multi-tabled, information. Multi-tabling, you would probably want to toss JJ here just due to the complication factor of it and wait for a better spot.

WiZZiM · Jan 28, 2010

ahh i thought thats what you meant with your comment after but i wasnt sure... heh im the opposite, ill play JJ more strongly in a mtt(not in deepstacked poker of course), and cash, and weaker in a stt... hmmmm

i just think its really tough to call the preflop raise, one overcard hits and now what?? if two overcards hit and he bets well ok sure.. but the one overcard it seems really weak after calling the initial raise to just fold the flop... if no overcards hit your likely to be ahead, sometimes your still crushed by QQ+, Also likely he bets 99+ if the cards hit are all low..

c9h13no3 · Jan 28, 2010

dg1267 said:
These micro MTT players will 3bet so lightly I think it's a better choice to play a few more hands than you would against decent players.

Hearing C9 say fold rather than "Insta-shove" is really odd here. I'd like to hear more about why you would say that.

Pretty simple really, we need like 60% equity against villain's range to continue. And I figured we didn't have much fold equity since villain 3-bet us when we raised UTG, and therefore it was unlikely to be a light 3-bet.

So in order to have 60% equity when called, we'd need his range to be something crazy like:

Hand 0: 59.464% { JJ }
Hand 1: 40.536% { 44+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }

I doubt he's 3-betting so very wide! It just doesn't seem like a big edge going all in with jacks here, and calling puts us in a real reverse implied odds situation and is obviously a bad choice. So I thought folding wasn't a bad idea.

But if guys are 3-betting/calling off pocket 7's, then they might do it with 44+, KQ, AQ+ as well, so maybe we do have a big edge.

Das Kid · Jan 28, 2010

definate shove at this stakes

dg1267 · Jan 28, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
Pretty simple really, we need like 60% equity against villain's range to continue. And I figured we didn't have much fold equity since villain 3-bet us when we raised UTG, and therefore it was unlikely to be a light 3-bet.

So in order to have 60% equity when called, we'd need his range to be something crazy like:

Hand 0: 59.464% { JJ }
Hand 1: 40.536% { 44+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }

I doubt he's 3-betting so very wide! It just doesn't seem like a big edge going all in with jacks here, and calling puts us in a real reverse implied odds situation and is obviously a bad choice. So I thought folding wasn't a bad idea.

But if guys are 3-betting/calling off pocket 7's, then they might do it with 44+, KQ, AQ+ as well, so maybe we do have a big edge.

I guess it could go either way, depending on your reads of the player. I'm just so used to seeing 3 bets with ATo+, 55+ that I think JJ is pretty good here a lot of the times. Remember, this is in micros and they are action junkies. I wouldn't accept this thinking much higher.

$1 NLHE STT: $ NLHE STT: JJ been kicking my butt - What to do here?

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