€200 PL 5 Card Draw 6-max: A Treat for Fans of Other Variants

Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Here is something you don`t often see at CC. How about some Five Card Draw ? :)

This is on a European site. Five Card Draw is pretty popular in Europe and the players at this site tend to be mostly gamblers (online 5CD is a very swingy game) with the odd tough regular mixed in. You can usually tell the regs because they are multi-tabling and often sitting behind larger stacks.

I have only been at this table for a couple of rounds of blinds. Villain seems to be playing a lot of hands. I have played one hand and won a modest pot by showing down a pair of Aces, so my table image is probably solid TAG.


Game # 1613691466 - 5-Card Draw Pot Limit EUR 1.00/2.00

Players(max 6):
Villain (EUR 79.00 in seat 1)
Egon Towst (EUR 84.20 in seat 2)
UTG (EUR 19.10 in seat 3)
Cutoff (EUR 24.00 in seat 4)
Button (EUR 14.50 in seat 5)

Small Blind: Villain (1.00)
Big Blind: Egon Towst (2.00)

Egon Towst was dealt: :7s4: - :ks4: - :5c4: - :5s4: - :2s4:

UTG Fold
Cutoff Fold
Button Fold
Villain Call (1.00)


Over to you. How do you play ? Check or Raise ? Which cards will you discard ?
__________________
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

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i play 5 card draw on pokerstars. this situation i would check, and discard 5 of clubs. pretty sure the villain has at least a pair or a draw, so he would call you anyways, considering its fixed limit.

now if you keep the pair of 5, you could discard 3, and see what the villain discards, if he discards 3, he probably has you beat with a bigger pair, if he discards 2, he probably has a pair and keeps a high card, like an Ace, many people do, now if he discards 1 card, and checks, he probably was on a draw and you can push him out by betting.

personally, when i get a big pair, i will bet before the discard round, but i would keep 3 cards, lets say i get a hand like KKA42, i would bet, and keep the AAK, see how many people call me, if i get 1 called that discards 3 cards, i will bet, if i get 1 called that discards 2, i might still bet, if i get a caller who discards 1, i will probably bet. but in this case, vs this villain, i would not make a move.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Good response, sir.

I wonder where all those people are who wanted more coverage at CC for non-holdem topics ? Does none of them have an opinion ? :confused:
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Sorry about the delay in replying, struggling a bit with poor connectivity. I typed out a lengthy reply once, only to lose it when almost complete. Soooo frustrating. I am going to type in Word now and cut-and-paste to here to avoid a repeat. Sorry if that results in some font oddities.

As Foresakenone rightly says, we have two viable lines. We can discard the :5c4: and draw to our flush, or we can discard three and draw to our pair.

Positional advantage is huge in Five Card Draw, not least because in situations like this we can observe the opponent`s move and mould our strategy accordingly. So, it makes sense here to check and see villain`s actions. We continued:


Egon Towst Check

Villain changed 3 cards


So, we can deduce that the opponent started with a pair. Therefore, my reasoning ran as follows:

1. 70% of the time, the opponent will not have improved. However, his pair is likely to be higher than our 55s. If he had Aces, he would likely have raised before the draw, so we can discount that possibility, but that still means he could have any of 8 pairs which beat us and only 3 which do not. So, if we draw to our pair and fail to improve (70% chance), we will be an 8:3 dog.

2. If we draw to our flush, we will hit a little less than 20% of the time, which is not greatly different from our chance of achieving the best hand in scenario #1, but with the important difference that we would then have a monster hand and the possibility, should villain also improve, of setting up the dream 5CD situation – where the opponent has a hand which will look good to him but will be second best to our hand.

Therefore, we played on so:


Egon Towst changed :5c4: and now holds :7s4: - :ks4: - :as4: - :5s4: - :2s4:

Villain Bet (2.00)


Excellent ! We hit the Ace-high flush and villain also appears to like his hand. We know that the only way he could be ahead here is if he hit quads or a boat by drawing three cards to a pair, a possibility so remote (approx 1% chance) that we can safely assume we have the best hand and need only tickle opponent into putting as many as possible of his chips in. Play continued:


Egon Towst Raise (6.00)
Villain Raise (20.00)
Egon Towst Raise (52.00)
Villain All-In (55.00)
Egon Towst Call (19.00)



What do you suppose he showed down ? Can you guess ?
 
KerouacsDog

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four of a kind/fullhouse, with the luckiest redraw ever!


(last time I played 5CD I had a crewcut and was into adam and the ants, circa 1981!)
 
nevadanick

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Whatever he had, it seems he was counting on you having missed your draw.

With only a few rounds of play, hard to tell what villain might have hit, but unlikely the quads or boat, just darned unlucky 4u if he did. Even if he tripped up or connected to a straight, he may have figured he was still ahead with his trips/etc.

A hand like this may often play out as him putting you on 2 pair and him hitting his pair for trips.

We can also go on to the really weird <1% hands where he held an AKs and drew 3 to flush, one being a Q. Then it's just a matter of getting beat by the 'miracle hand' ... and we can't anticipate or fold based on that assumption.
 
jaymfc

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Egon Towst; said:
What do you suppose he showed down ? Can you guess ?

3 Q's :) and where there no complaints about so many short stacker's ?
 
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I've played a bit of PL5CD on Stars seems all the regs are from Kiev but yeah this hand I'm raising preflop all day not much more logic than he open limped SB so he's probably weak and will probably call our predraw raise and fold postdraw plus we have nut flush draw to fall back on hitting. As played postdraw I'm not sure it's villain dependent but when he bet/3-bets to 20 I'm not entirely sure there's value in coming over the top again I might just call. I don't have frequencies down too well at 5CD but I have to believe we're not getting much value from trips-type hands although boats/quads are hard to make and that's all that beats us. Just the big thing is he drew 3 meaning he likely doesn't have a straight or flush. On the other hand it's also hard to make boats/quads drawing 3 so idk I guess it can't be terrible.
 
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3 Q's :) and where there no complaints about so many short stacker's ?

PL5CD is a 2-street game whereas NLHE is a 4-street game. Given that betting rounds are exponential you usually should have around 4 times as much money for nlhe meaning that since standard buy-in for nlhe is 100bb standard for PL5CD would be 25bb. There's a few below it but since they have random amounts they're likely just recreational players who suck rather than professional shortstackers people that play nlhe hate so much.
 
nevadanick

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... where there no complaints about so many short stacker's ?

Nothing wrong with the stacks, imo. The button could have been bigger stacked, but I don't really see these as 'shortstackers'.

PL5CD is a 2-street game whereas NLHE is a 4-street game. Given that betting rounds are exponential you usually should have around 4 times as much money for nlhe meaning that since standard buy-in for nlhe is 100bb standard for PL5CD would be 25bb. There's a few below it but since they have random amounts they're likely just recreational players who suck rather than professional shortstackers people that play nlhe hate so much.

^^^^^ this.
 
forsakenone

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regardless of what he hit, i would have called when he raised to 20$. but, as playing loads of 5CD i assume he hit 3 of a kind, thats what i think, but i can happed that he hit a monster, few days ago i am dealt a made flush, i raise, a guy calls, draws 3, and kicks my arse with a fullhouse. a while ago i was dealt 4 of a kind 3s, 3333, some guy draws 2 cards, so he had 3 of a kind, he is the first to act, he bets i raise, i go broke, he shows 4 of a kind Ks, so crazy things can happen.

but in this case i think he will show 3 of a kind 7s or 9s, something like that, i assume he saw you draw 1 card, and thought you have 2 pair, and now he thinks his set is good.

dying to know what happen.
 
Egon Towst

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PL5CD is a 2-street game whereas NLHE is a 4-street game. Given that betting rounds are exponential you usually should have around 4 times as much money for nlhe meaning that since standard buy-in for nlhe is 100bb standard for PL5CD would be 25bb. There's a few below it but since they have random amounts they're likely just recreational players who suck rather than professional shortstackers people that play nlhe hate so much.

^^this. I usually buy in for 40x BB at a PL5CD table, and that will generally make mine one of the bigger stacks.


this hand I'm raising preflop all day not much more logic than he open limped SB so he's probably weak and will probably call our predraw raise and fold postdraw plus we have nut flush draw to fall back on hitting.

Now that is an interesting notion, which hadn`t even occurred to me. In these games you don`t see a lot of that kind of semi-bluff play, if only because it`s difficult to shake off callers in a Pot Limit structure. I do see the logic in this situation, though.


four of a kind/fullhouse, with the luckiest redraw ever!

You are one pessimistic so-and-so, KD, but you are right. Play continued:


Villain shows: :jd4: - :8c4: - :8h4: - :jh4: - :jc4: (a full house, Jacks full of Eights)

Egon Towst didn't show hand.

Villain wins: EUR 153.00 (with a full house, Jacks full of Eights)
Rake: EUR 5.00



:eek: :eek: :eek: :argh: :argh: :argh:

A pretty atrocious beat, but that`s poker and the beats come in 5CD as much as in any other variant.

-----

Some other things you might like to think about:

1. How would we play if we missed the flush with our draw but paired our King ?
2. Would we play differently if we drew a lesser Spade than the Ace and made a non-nut flush ?
3. What if opponent had drawn 2 cards instead of 3 (meaning that he could be drawing to improve from a dealt three-of-a-kind and his chances of having a better hand than our flush would be greater) ? How would that affect our play ?

-----

Thanks for the input, everyone. I know it taxed your brains in some cases, because this game is unfamiliar to you. I hope this thread aroused your interest enough to make some of you want to try this elegantly simple poker variant. If it did, post your results or even some more hands for us to look at. There is a lot more poker fun out there than just NLHE. :)
 
beardyian

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Taking 3 cards and making his boat :icon_puke + :icon_blac

I haven't played 5CD much but when i do it is usually in a concentrated spell (the same goes for other formats as well).

So any info, hands etc are always interesting to see and compare with my own thoughts.

Thanks for this one Mr Egon, even if the hand did hurt at the time ;)
 
t1tpfdc

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Very interesting thread!
Thanks Egon and all contributors!
 
ItsMe

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I like 5cd although play at smaller stakes, which usually means limit games. Agree with your discard. Obviously you are unlikely twice - hitting your hand and villain making a better one,~0.8%. Then how you play it especially when you three bet depends on your reads as well as on hand strength and the small odds villain makes a better hand than you with 3 discards. How often does villain re-raise with trips thinking you only have two pair? How many times does he think he can get you to lay down a 2 pair hand when he has air? Without sitting through a few hands, I don't think it fair to comment further.

Agree also that we should have more threads on games popular in Great Britain and continental europe. I seem to play mainly europeans at PL Omaha Hi/Lo for example, and these games have alot going for them.
 
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