Your First Final Table

Great read, in fact I think this should be archived. I myself have been that timid player your talking about at the the final table and if I ever get there again I think I shall open up this thread for insperation. The fear factor for a beginner at poker of just raising with trash to steal is a massive stumbling block I am just now getting over. Put in to practice though its amazing the amount of chips you can accumalate.

Out of intrest is there a certain point in mtts that you start stealing blinds as in when the antes hit? Or is it a case see how it "feels"?

Again great read and looking forward to more.

Excellent post Egon. Great strategy discussion, great examples. I know that I'm not much of an MTT player, largely because I get pooped out by the time the FT arrives, resulting in more 6, 5, 4 place finishes than necessary.

As with many other poker questions, it depends.

As a rough measure, when the Big Blind reaches one tenth of the starting stack is a good point at which to start. Much before that and the blinds are too small to really be worth the bother.

However, one might start earlier if the table were especially tight, or wait until later if you have opponents who are reluctant to fold.

Do I need to say this is once again a priceless post for those of us who just keep making it again and again but can't win a piece of those final tables

gonna print it and stick it in front of my eyes every time i play a MTT Egon

Very nice. Thank you for the definitely needed information.

Nice blog. I find it hard to switch gears at the final table, when I have been stealing a lot of blinds. But I guess its all about practice.

You write this Egon or did you just enhance it with the Rex/AG/Bob references?

I wrote it, m8.

I discussed with Rex last year that I would write some stuff based on my FT experience. In theory, I was going to produce it as a sort of Xmas present to the forum, but I couldn`t find the time.

I hope Easter is ok.

Very nice. Take it as a compliment that I thought it may have been written by someone else (ie pro). It is extremely well written

Excellent stuff Egon

Agree with all of that, though as I only play double stack or rebuy tournaments the avg stack is usually around the 20bb mark which changes ranges a bit and gives a bit more room to play.

The advice to breathe in the table is spot on, reads are everything. I'd suggest that at every level there are usualy 4 or 5 players who are terrified to play, and ironically as a result usually end up busting quickly due to shoving uneccessarily the moment they get a decent hand. I think for many players they are eager to eliminate the decision making process of post-flop play by shoving anything playable preflop without consideration of position or opponents.

The area I always find interesting is the relationship that develops between you as a button, SB and BB and the players to your left and right. I've found that managing this successfully is often the key to building a nice stack, both in terms of steals and getting it in for stacks with the best of it. Not a specific question but any thoughts about this area of play?

I concur.

I think it`s important to watch the players to my immediate right and develop a feel for their raising range, so that I know whether they are likely to be playing a real hand or just utilising their position.

As regards the players to my left, I often focus on the one third to my left. When I am button, the SB and BB may expect a steal from me, if I have an aggressive table image. However, a steal from the cutoff is much less likely to be identified as such.

It is a fine compliment. Thank you.

I 2nd every word of the OP.

WTF can dj know? Lately I have been doing PDG in HORSE tourneys. The first few where more luck based, but then I got to thinking that maybe it isn't all that much luck, cuz the cards I see have not been special. So I started actually and really seeing what I was doing.

Turns out I was doing just what Egon is telling you here. And as I remember back on past Final Tables, I remember that those things happened. In HORSE tourney's, my HUD doesn't work (used to in the HE games but no more anywhere??), so I have to rely on my OBSERVATIONS and the ambiance of the table. The 'breathing in' part of the OP is dead on.

Of particular importance, and not mentioned, is realizing when any villain is ready to commit pokercide. They are so short stacked that they got demoralized and ATC will do. Note whether you do it yourself. Of late I have not been committing pokercide too often. I'll wait longer than I ever did before, and often way past conventional wisdom decries, before I move. Pokercide is almost always 100% successful.

Sometimes while driving down the road, the road is flat and straight and your car just floats a straight line down that road, but usually the road is imperfect and tilted and requires your intervention to drive down that road. Your experiences help you overcome that tilted road.

It is a good question, and the obvious answer is "it depends".

That seems unhelpful, though, so I will try for a better answer.

As suggested in the OP, I will look to take one pot approximately every round of blinds. During my "breathing-in" phase, I will have pre-selected my targets. I actually make a player note "foldr" where appropriate, meaning that the player in question seems likely to fold preflop when pressed. Those players are the ones to attack.

I try very hard not to be predictable, and therefore I have no predetermined plan as to when or how often I will steal. Even though I may have been uncomplimentary about opponents in my OP above, it`s worth bearing in mind that there are not usually any fools at the FT. A guy who has come this far in the tourney must have a reasonable notion of how to play, so it doesn`t pay to be too obvious.

I don`t steal massively often, and it may be that won`t steal at all in a round, if I am fortunate enough to be dealt a good hand and to win a pot with legitimate cards. When I do steal, I try not to target the same player two rounds in a row, so that it is not obvious to him that I am picking on him.

I will sometimes steal on two consecutive hands, representing a "rush". In a strange way, I think that is more believable. I don`t, though, open raise three hands in a row unless the third is a genuine hand.

In order to ensure that I do not, even unconsciously, fall into a readable pattern, if there are several "foldrs" at the table I will decide when to target one randomly using the wristwatch method of deciding when to make an uncharacteristic move. That method is discussed in "Harrington on Holdem" and is quite widely known, I think. Basically, if your plan is to steal (say) one time in six, you glance at your watch or clock when the turn passes to you. If the second hand is between O and 10 seconds, you make a move, otherwise not.

Blind stealing is a key part of the MTT player`s arsenal, and a complex subject in its own right. I am not at all sure I have done the subject justice there (I am playing in a MTT now and therefore not fully focused here), but I hope that helps ?


No, I never give away any free information and I prefer to keep the opponent guessing. Therefore, I never show a hand in any circumstances and always have the "auto-muck" button checked.

That is, however, a matter of personal preference. Other CC regulars believe in showing, and there are good arguments either way.

Awesome article, consider writing more for the popular demand

Thanks for the answers Egon, I think next book I can afford Ill look up Harrington. Gonna play a 1$ mtt and keep the midnight fires burning lol hopefully I will need this article again later.

I hope so. Good luck with that.

Wonderful article Egon. Even after 3+ years as a member of this forum, I continue to be surprised by both the quality & generosity of the members.

+

^^^ I second that motion, all in favor? * the croud aplaudes* Motion carried.


You sure reminded me of my first online final table, it was at a Bodog $1,000 FR/ 2k players about 5 years ago. Somehow I managed to win too! (and promptly lost most of it on cash tables above any br managment considerations trying to win the 100K via cheap satty's entries )

That said I had no clue about the tactics of poker by any means. (thought I did, lol) Never flat out bluffed but I did over value junk hands a bit more than I care to admit, couldn't read players, didn't know how to raise right and certainly didn't know a 3bet from a hole in the ground, lol...

All I can say is TG for CC and great posters like ET!

Great article Egon - I plan on needing to use this information very soon. I haven't made a final table in the past couple of months since I started playing a lot of tournaments - but I am getting closer and closer. I know this will be invaluable for me when I do.

Amazing post. Well written. Of course, if you enter the FT as a shortstack, should you not be prepared to rely solely on a shortstack strategy first? It's impossible to breathe in the atmosphere if you have 2 BB.

Overall, though, great post with some thoughts I will definitely take into my next FT appearance.

Thank you.


That is true.

Personally, I would avoid that dilemma by never allowing my stack to fall so low. Once you are down as low as that, you no longer have any fold equity and no options remaining other than to pray for a miracle hand. You are a passenger in a runaway train, on your way to the scene of the accident.

I believe in always making a move of some kind before I fall below 5xBB at the very lowest, and I am not comfortable (even in the high blind/short stack territory near the end of a tourney) unless I have more than 10.

In that connection, it is worth keeping a close eye on the countdown to the next level. Otherwise, there is a danger you will be caught out by the blind increase and may find your stack suddenly depleted (in effect). This can be pretty disconcerting in these marginal situations.

Here,here. Excellent advice as well as a great read. This is so well written you should consider getting it published in a poker magazine.Gonna make a couple copies to hang in a few rooms and the first time I take down a tourney I'm gonna buy you a drink. Thank you for taking the time to help educate us online newbies.

Hah i liked the touch you added in the end. Nicely put. Your explanation
was very enlightening and painted a general picture of how final
tables are. I have been in a few myself and i totally agree with some of
your points, especially with the need to take the blinds. I find this
extremely easy at this point, especially when i have a fair stack to push.
Sadly it doesnt always work if your playing freerolls or tournies with
small buyins, since a lot of people tend to tell themselves 'what the hell,
its only pocket change', even if they took hours to get where they were.
I suppose this is also due to the fact that they are tired and totally worn
out. Anyway i enjoyed reading the articule and hope to read a few more,
hopefully just as good as this one!

Thanks, guys, I appreciate your comments. I would write more, only I have a lot of demands on my time. I only manage to do a serious strategy or hand-analysis thread once every few months. Sorry.

If you are interested, the last couple of big threads I made are here (http://www.cardschat.com/f51/big-slick-early-mtt-124816/) and here.

BRAVO! BRAVO!
this was truely a magnificent read. at first it seemed too long, but once i started reading had to finish and very glad i had. thank you.

Thanks ET. I have only made a couple of final tables in my time and only recently have become more comfortable raising with nothing against "fldrs." 3 Betting is still fairly new to me as well-only after watching the pokerstars videos did I realize that 3 betting is a powerful strategy against aggressive players like yourself.

You sound like a very busy person, so only if you have some spare time maybe you could share your wisdom in a thread I would love some pros to participate in. Harrington on Holdem: the workbook, in the strategy section is something for new players like myself. But hopefully you could share some insight. You dont even have to reread the book-feel free to post one sentence out of context if you feel it can help the newbies.

Thanks again, do you mind if I print this out?

Go right ahead.

Can't believe I didn't see this till now. Nice article Egon!!!

thank you thank you thank you!!

Mr Egon I read this and in the last 3 days i have 1st out of 4000 23rd out of 5400 and 11th out of 2700 all freerolls ...Nowonly one was a final table but the switching gears helped me and keeps them wondering ty again this is on my favorites list

I had Missed this too Egon....Well written

Well done!
But your play certanly depends on your chipstack and you also need a little luck to win a tournement....

Great Post Egon, I dont know how I missed it all this time, and as said b4 very well writen, I too will be printing this out and keeping it in a prominant position while playing, I already do these thing in a way, but it was always without knowing why, so now that I have it in a stuctured way it will help me no doubt.
Thanks mate.