QUICK add-on question

I've never been as stacked as i am right now (6K) at the first break
I've got 5.5K with blinds about to hit 100/200

Should i add on??

I usually add on because i'm around 1 to 3K in chips and need that extra 1000.

p.s. the chipleaders are 10K, 10K, 9,9,9,9,8,8,777 etc

im also 30th of 200 left

meh time ran out...i made my decision but am still curious - do you guys add on in this situation?

Depends on the buy-in and the price for an add on.

$10 buy in, same for rebuy and add-on.
I hadn't rebought in this particular tourney.

If your bankroll allows it, you bet. I'm all for taking any advantage you can to help you to the finish (as long as it's not cheating).

$10 just for an extra 1,000. I don't think it's going to help you than much Chuck. I don't think the price is right for the add on. I know you already made your decision but that's my opinion.

I am not sure about this, it should be about how confident you are, an extra 1k when u will still be 3k of CL and ur stack will be about yhe same is not really worth it, may aswell take a 1k pot with the best ahdn off another play, with these blinds you can easily do so!

I can't believe there is even a shred of debate about this. I'll post my thoughts later once I've seen some more responses, because as far as I'm concerned it's a very easy decision.

I ended up adding on.
The competition is so easy to bully, i just had to. The addon moved me up like 10 positions aswell.

Either way, it didn't matter...just busted out vs. a calling station monkey who hit his river.
I'm actually not that pissed, i'm just going to keep pounding at this 6K and the 5 and 4Ks as much as i can - it's just so damn easy. And no that's not me gloating; the money really is very easy in those tournaments. All you have to do is play a solid game and with a little luck, you'll be fine.

I agree with Dorkus that there's no discussion so lets hope he agrees with my answer .

Don't add on!!! You are adding 1/6 to your stack for the prize of a buyin in the tourney. The extra chips you get are not going to make any difference to how far you are going to get in the tourney.

that's what i thought the general concensus was....add on if you have 1-3 buy ins and if you have more don't add on....oh well
i actually personally thought it helped, but really wasn't worth the $10.

Chuck, two questions

1) Do you consider yourself to be a better player than the majority of other players in these events?

2) Why do you think I asked you question 1?

I agree - it gives you an extra hand to play, but you've worked into a good enough position now that the real poker is beginning.

The one live tourney I played (i need to play again!), I rebought because I had 3,000 chips and the opposition had similar - apart from the table leader who had 16,000 chips. He still paid another £5 for an extra 1,000 chips!

Okay, a couple of assumptions before I go any further.

1) Your long term expectancy is that you have a positive ROI for this tourney. Let's throw 50% out there just for the sake of a simple calculation later.

2) The cost of the addon is the same as the initial buyin

3) The number of chips given by the addon is the same as the number of chips everyone started with.

By adding on, with an expectancy of an ROI of 50% you are gaining 1500 chips in value for the cost of 1000 chips, 500 more chips than the average player in this tourney. Unless you're not sufficiently bankrolled for the event (in which case I'd ask why play it?), why pass up on this edge?

Yeah, there comes a point where the diminishing value of extra chips would probably make it -EV to add on, but I'd suggest that this comes at around 20k at least here, certainly not 5.5k.

I'd say that with the stack size he had, the add-on wasn't a great idea. The main point where it would be worthwhile would be to stop yourself being seriously short-stacked compared to the blinds. If you have a decent chip stack, then the proportionate increase won't make enough of a difference for doubling your outlay to be worthwhile - if you look at it as a return on investment percentage, then you'd have to expect to on average win twice as much, and getting less than 1/3 extra chips, I don't think you're going to see that difference.
I'd agree with the general view that when you're really short-stacked it's worthwhile, and when you've got a huge stack it's not, but I'd disagree with Dorkus about where that cut-off is, and put it at more like 4K here, with those sizes of blinds, and those chip stacks.

It's an easy choice.
ADD-ON!

You shouldn't be playing a rebuy tourney if you don't understand why you should get the add-on every time.

For those of you who think that it is not worth it (especially in this instance), you are more than likely a "results oriented" type player.
This is not a good thing.

I say don't add on.
Having over 5K post-break is pretty impressive. Not chip leader, but nowhere near short stack.
Chuck, you are a very well educated and accomplished poker player. You don't need to add-on. If you want to, feel free, but if you don't need it(and you don't), why not save the $10 and enter another tourney?

okay i'm seeing both sides of the story here, from very competent players here and can't decide which is the best decision...
Like i said in my previous post, I had previously heard that adding on if you were a big stack was 'pointless' - basically you're paying the full amount of the buyin for a small fraction of your stack to add on.
The big reason to add on is to give you a bigger stack to help you with dealing with the blinds, and give you more elbow room with playing.
Where do you draw the line though? When you've reached 5000 chips? (assuming you start with 1K) 10K? more?
I added on, because i compared myself to the other big stacks in the tourney, and wanted to give myself some extra room. I am confident enough that if I have 5K or more after the break, that i will hit money - and when i hit money, i often make it fairly far in the tournament. (this time i didn't, but you can't win em all, right?)

Chuck, I think the question you're asking isn't quite right - you asked where to draw the line compared to the starting stack? What's important is your stack size compared to the shortest stacks, and the blinds. After that consider your stack compared to the average and largest stacks.
The stack size compared to the starting stack isn't really as important as whether you have enough to handle the blinds and put at least some players all-in to put the pressure on them. The more players you can put pressure on the better, hence looking at stacks compared to other players. From what you'd said you had plenty for the blinds for the time being, and you would be able to put pressure on a lot of the players to steal blinds, so I don't think the rebuy was necessary - because it depends on the remaining players and stacks it's hard to put a particular figure on it, though.

You have a choice. Players around you are adding on for an average of 1000 chips in value.

(I'm making the same assumptions I made in my last post here)

1) Pay 0 for 0 extra chips. Neutral EV, I guess.

2) Pay the same price the others are paying for average 1k chips in value for 1.5k chips in value. Obviously +EV.

Anyone care to dispute this?

This logic is flawed.

1) It ignores the fact that the person considering the add on may well have already rebought multiple times.

2) It ignores the fact that other people are adding on as well.

add-on everytime without any shadow of a doubt.

whether your stack size is 500 or 50000.

in poker you should do anything you can to increase your edge in a tournament and if you are looking at value for the add-on then you really are playing the wrong game.

you need to invest to expect a return. 1000 chips at this level is 5 more BB's if everyone add-on's you are at a disadvantage to the field and shorter stacks will begin to catch you up if you dont add-on.

i cannot understand the theory of not adding on because you dont get value for money!

When I do enter a re-buy tournament I am assuming that no matter what I am going to do the add-on or why bother playing that style of game. I don't really think it is an option most of the time, you have to do it. I don't look at the face value of the chips that I am buying as much as what not buy means to me.

Chip values change in tournaments based on what size stacks you have compared to everyone else at the table and what the blinds are. In the first 15 min a 3k stack is good because the blinds are 10/20 and you should be the big stack. 2 hours later and you are still at 3k, the blinds are 1000/2000 and now you are the short stack. You are not doing so well yet you have maintained the whole time. Without doing the add-on you are giving away chips to the rest of the players who do.

The average stack at the break is say 3k, well after eveyone that does the add-on is done the average stack just moved to 3.5k to 3.75k depending on how may people just did the rebuy and size of the tournament. Your chips just lost some of thier value since the total chips in play just went up by 10% or more.

I think doing an add-on even if you are the chip leader is a good thing.

I play alot of rebuys and addons. The main reason you want to do the add on is to keep your position at the table. By not adding on you take the chance of dropping your position and having other players move up on you. And later on when you are trying for the final table you need to keep your position as you well know.

While I understand and agree with the logic that one should always add on (though I must admit to not always doing it) I had a follow up question. Should one also, by the same logic, always rebuy right away at the beginning (if playing at a site which allows it, presuming some don't) and always double rebuy when you're eliminated?

-n

Yes, always.

Chips = power, and you want to be getting maximum value for your strong hands.

Well, the only rebuy tournies I ever play are the $3+R tournies on pokerstars. The first hour tends to be a lottey, with 2 to 3 times as many rebuys as entries, and people calling with litterally anything if the pot is big enough. I like to play this event with the goal in mind not to rebuy or add on much at all, as just finishing in the money will usually grant you a profit of 7 times your buy in. If I go out, i go out, and just count it as a loss. Because as wild as the action is, one can end up rebuying so many times that you have to finish well into the money to make a profit, and i just can't see the logic in that. In your opinion is that the wrong way to play? I'm asking honestly. It just seems to me the more you rebuy, the less value you are getting on your money. Unless you make a lot of final tables, then the number of rebuys are meaningless, but personally i find (and i don't know about anybody else) I finish in the money a heck of a lot more often then I make final tables. sorry if i'm taking this off topic

-n

You comment about not making many final tables and just sneaking into the money a lot, but by being so timid during the rebuy period that's exactly what's going to happen.

The first hour (or w/e the rebuy period is) in a rebuy is all about accumulating chips. If your table is loose you can sit back a little and push stronger hands, but if your table is tight you need to loosen up and stimulate action so that chips are being thrown around your table.

You play overly tightly and not intend on rebuying, you will more often than not come out of the rebuy period with a small stack and no room for maneuver. You push all slight edges, and even 40/60s, and chances are you will have a run of luck somewhere along the line which will accumulate a nice stack for yourself. A bigger stack coming out of the rebuy period means more room for maneuver, more stealing opportunities, and more chance of going very deep in the tourney.

Looking at the payout structure for one of the $3 rebuys on Stars, first paid 190ish times more than the lowest money tier. Even FTing guarantees 15 times the lowest tier money, and this is with Stars' crappy 20% payout. You should be aiming to FT, and to do this you need chips. If you have to rebuy a few times to get them, so be it. By not rebuying and quitting when bust you are giving up such a huge edge to the players who are rebuying that it's hardly worth your time bothering playing at all, play a freezeout instead.

i wasn't complaining, I was just asking your opinion. You're so keen on the math and 'EV', I was hoping for a responce which included these facts, no just unwarented ciritism. I mean, how often do you make final tables? besides I wasn't even disagreeing with you. As i've said in pervious 'discussions' with you Dorkus, you and I just speak a different language, and so I won't bother replying to posts that you have already entered into anymore. You are always right.

-n

Why so defensive?

I edited 'complain', as maybe it was a little strong.

I don't see how you can't link your lack of FTing with the fact you're not willing to rebuy, though.

I'll post some fun maths tomorrow when it's not 2am. :/

again, i ask, how many "FT's" do you make per tournaments played? I'm sorry if I appeared defensive. I honestly agreed with you from the beginning on this subject. I would love to read the 'fun maths' which you meantioned, but I won't post on this discussion any further. For whatever reason, this is just the way it always works out when I enter into your posts. I appoligize. there is no need to continue this any further, at least for me, though I will read on

-n

("How many FTs do you make per tournament played?" isn't really an important statistic. If I made the FT 5% of the time in 1000 player tourneys, it would be good. If I made the same % of FTs in 100 person tourneys, it would be bad)

Okay, here's the maths, as promised.

I'm assuming you're a winning player. Let's look at instant rebuying at the start of a tourney.

Say you start with 1500 chips, and the instant rebuy, if taken, will give you 1500 extra chips. The buyin is $10 and rebuys are $10 (I'm even ignoring the fact that there's no vig on rebuys which makes them even more appealing)

Assume also that you maintain your starting stack (be it 1500 or 3000) for a while.

Now assume that, as a winning player, you can get all your chips in with, let's say on average a 60/40 edge on your opponents. Assume that said opponent has you covered.

If you instantly rebought, you have 3000 chips for $20. You have a 60% chance of doubling up to T6000, and a 40% chance of going broke and having to rebuy. Your EV is ((6000*0.6)+(0*0.4)) = 3600 total chips for an expected total buyin of $24 ($20+($10*0.4)), assuming you rebuy if bust. That's 150 chips per $ invested.

If you did not instantly rebuy, you have 1500 chips for $10. The percentage chances stay the same, but you have a 60% chance of doubling up to only T3000. Your EV is now ((3000*0.6)+(0*0.4)) = 1800 total chips for an expected total buyin of $14 ($10+($10*0.4)). That's now 128.5 chips per $ invested.

Yeah, the above only covers one specific situation, but works in much the same way from a broader perspective, without even touching on the other benefits of having a bigger stack (having more opportunities to steal, and so on).

Regarding rebuying in general, there’s no deep maths involved.

Assume again that you are a winning player, and have an ROI of 50%.

Assume that you bust. Rebuys are $10 for 1500 chips, as above.

If you do not rebuy, you pay $0 extra, obviously. You gain $0 in value.

Double rebuying is addressed in my last post, so for the purposes of this I’ll assume that you single rebuy.

If you do rebuy, you pay $10 extra. As you have an ROI of 50%, you can expect, in the long run, that this further investment of $10 will actually be worth $15 ($10+($10*0.5)). In actuality, it may be worth a little less than this due to you having a short stack, but you can still expect a positive return as long as you have a reasonable ROI. Thus whenever you elect not to rebuy, you are losing $5 in value. You have to remember that your initial buyin of $10 is gone whether you rebuy or not. Therefore you are not paying $20 for $15 in value, you are paying $10 for it.

There are two situations in which I could advocate not rebuying, one of which is purely theoretical and is unlikely to occur, the other is much more relevant

a)If the blinds are very large, then you lose your skill edge, and there comes a point where rebuying is not feasible (I really don’t know exactly where but I’d estimate it’s around about the point where you’d be rebuying for less than 10-15BBs, which you will never be doing assuming a normal tournament structure and that you always double rebuy).

b) If you’re tilting. When on tilt, you lose your skill edge, and your investment of $10 may well be worth less than $10 in value.

I know i said i wouldn't post on this again, but i just wanted to thank you for your advice. i've been doing a lot better at rebuys lately playing this way (though i suppose i always did when i can afford it). anyway, thanks.

-n

There's a flaw in the first part of this argument as you half point out. You assume the ROI on a rebuy to give you half the stack of everyone else is the same as your normal tournament ROI, whereas I'm pretty sure it would be a lot lower.

I can see the arguments for doing an "instant" rebuy to double your chips at the beginning, because you're at a disadvantage if you don't.

But I don't agree that you should ever rebuy after being busted out in an online tournament. Simply because, as you say, your ROI on this rebuy will be less because you're now the short stack, and you're re-starting at a disadvantage to everyone else. You can get a better return on this money by simply going and entering another tournament where you're on a level playing field again.

Not trying to be argumentative, but is there any flaw in this logic? Can anyone claim that the ROI on a rebuy for a small stack in the middle of a tourney is higher than your normal tournament ROI? If not, there's no reason to rebuy.

The only reasons I can think of that would rebuy are
a) You're enjoying the company and it's a fun table
b) It's a live tournament and you've spent a whole lot of time and effort travelling to the venue, and there isn't another tournament you can enter

I really don't understand your point.

In rebuys, other people are rebuying when they bust. If, once you bust, you do not rebuy, you are essentially giving up an infinite edge to players who do rebuy. Giving up infinite edges isn't good.

You talk about ROI on rebuys being lower, but if I do not rebuy, yet I have a positive expectancy on any investments in rebuys, my ROI as a whole is going to suffer to an even greater extent because of the edge I am giving up by not rebuying. Say I bust and don't rebuy, my ROI for that tourney is -100%. If I bust and rebuy once even with an expected ROI of 0% on my extra $10, my ROI is ultimately -50% - quite a difference.

Yes, I can go and enter another tournament when I bust, but if I was planning on not rebuying, the obvious course of action would be to play a 'freezeout' instead, where I am not giving up any infinite edges.