Battle Of Blinds, Just After AK Hand

Hi all, a bit after the AKs hand in the previous thread i had this hand. I am pretty sure i played it badly but thoery or grounding would be usful, thanks

I dont reeally know a lot about the villian but he did call an all in re-raise after he raised with QK but he had a big stack and the pusher was short

Maybe i felt he was stealing since the rasie came from a big stack in the SB which lead me to play the hand like that.

Cheers

Stacks:
MP1 with 16822
MP2 with 21225
MP3 with 10225
CO with 14370
BTN with 19870
SB with 20590
BB with 6400
UTG with 12297
UTG+1 with 6505


Blinds: 300/600
Site: Party Poker
Dealt to BB:9♦ 7♦
Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
7 players fold.
SB raises [900]
Hero calls [600]
Total folds this street: 7
Potsize: 1500
Flop:
3♦ 2♦ 4♥
SB checks.
Hero bets [1,500]
SB raises [3,000]
Hero calls [1,500]
Potsize: 6001
Turn:
5♠
SB bets [3,000]
Hero is all-in.
Potsize: 6004
River:
Q♠

Raise more preflop if u whant to steal(might even consider pushing at this level), a min raise doesent scare any one.
After the steal fails u get a good flop with 2overs and a flush draw,with your stack im open pushing this flop. But u bet 1500 in to a 1800 pot(a good c-bet but your stack really doesnt allow it) and get raised to 3000 if your going to play this hand just go all-in.
Other then that not much to say u just missed your draw.

You've got to be kidding me???? And I have read your AK sissy post...

I'll have to assume, you're referring to this hand, but why oh why would a much bigger stack be stealing your BB here? Thee olde maxwell smart steal the BB from the SB move? Why would they do that?

Ok, ok, here is where the stupidity starts. Ok, the BB, much bigger stack, is stealing your BB, and you have 97d, and you choose to defend? Why? Just fold. Period. 97 sooted sucks, but wait, you have position to the big stack SB raising you preflop? Fine, minor mistake, and you have a sooted 1 gapper, perhaps with pos, you can outplay them on the flop...

[3d 2d 4h]

That flop almost misses you completely, except for your 9 HIGH fl draw with 2 middle card overs??? How can you possibly think you are remotely good here?

But wait, the SB check raises you, and you seem to think you still good here???? wtf? ok, you weakly call, why? Fold preflop, this never happens.

Turn is NOT a blank, is 5s, SB bets, and you call allin? Why? What cards do you think you can beat here?

Do you possibly think your 9 high flush DRAW might be good? Really?

Seems to me, you donked off your stack playing like a flusher idiot...

Harsh... But true... a flusher. POK35 is a wise man.. but harsh.

BTW -
contrary to popular belief...
The "Just after a blah blah" doesn't matter. It seems like it should but I like the thought of Roulette... The wheel hit black the last 7 times. Chances of 8 blacks in a row is now... Still 50/50!... (ignore 0/00)

roflmao... except for the fact that's one of the best flops 97s could possibly hope for. But then, you folded to the min raise steal preflop, so you would never be in a position to make such a mistake.

op:
Get it all-in on the flop-- he was nice enough to re-open the betting for you, and you don't really have enough chips behind to call. You want to see both cards here with a possible/probable 15 outs twice, so just shove.

Fold preflop. Every time.

As played, shove the flop.

Wow, ok. Some really bad advice flying around here. It sounds like some people don't understand probability and expected value at all. I think the post-flop play is ok. I'd probably shove to the raise, because you're absolutely committed to call any bet on the turn, anyway. I don't necessarily mind the moderate sized opening bet on the flop. You're going to get called by Ax or 5x a good portion of the time, and then you can get him off it with an all-in on the turn.

If you thought he was stealing preflop, why just call? You put in a tenth of your stack calling against a "steal" with a hand that is worse than a random hand. IMO, it's all-in or fold preflop. You definitely still have fold equity, so if you really think he's full of it, get the chips in there. If you're wrong, 97s is a good hand to have if he ends up calling with a monster. And of course, a fold isn't a bad idea either, because 97s is a below average heads up hand. I think calling is probably the worst preflop option.

One of the "best" flops? Surely you jest. That flop gives you a 9 high fl draw, and what? Maybe my 9 and 7 are clean outs? RIGHT...

At best, you have the ULTIMATE flop with 15 outs. But, realistically you have a 9 high, hardly showdown quality, imo. As posted, the BS is stealing your measly BB, so they must have, what, air? They raised preflop, and they just check-raise you postflop, they must be bluffin? Let's put them on a hand:

pp, two d, set, weak Ax, heck any Ax? What do you have, 9 friggin high fl draw, and MAYBE 6 outs to pr, right?

Ok, fair enuff. What is the expected value here? Lose stack to a weak drawing hand? That is what pot odds and implied odds are all about, value, right?

The original poster, converted HH, not sure why, but never posted result.

Whats to do?

Fold prefop, OOP.
Iffin you call the PF raise, and see that FLUSHER flop, then, but, of course get check raised, and push allin. brilliant....

you're supposed to trade ur cards for charizard and decimate ur opponent with fire attacks obviously.
sigh its like no one reads poker books anymore

see above.

Why are your posts so hostile pok35? OP said he thought he played it poorly and wanted help, not to be berated.

You should just fold this preflop in this situation, since you can't outplay a big stack with a hand like 97s when you are severely shortstacked (ie. you have to hit the flop pretty hard to play back). However, seeing as you did call preflop, just shove the flop.

Well adding broadway and even Ax to his range is a little silly. What makes you think he's stacking QJ here?

Even so, you are right in that getting it in is absolutely standard here as played pf. We have a little bit of FE and good equity.

Postflop is clear.

PF should be too - fold or raise. I say just fold.

My posts are not hostile, they are mobile and honest. My analysis is the best I can do, sorry if it fails to meet your standards... Seems:

Is being rude and hostile, name calling like. Even if one is an 'aliengenus'?????

Fold preflop. OR

stack off, on flop, with your coin flip "BEST FLOP EVER" 46% to win, brilliant!

We may even be missing a river redraw, if you are truly a frusher..

Philthy scores the fight 29-27, AlienGenius.

pok35 certainly has 'critical' posts...

pro imo

with a gentlemans attitude to players seeking advice...well...

score it TKO in rd3 via 'rear naked choke', tapout, for all I care.

But, cmon.... For all we know, villian folded?

Sure, I voiced mine. Getting hammered for it, and tone, but I'll go to my grave thinking this is a pretty poor play. Stacking off in the BB with a middle 1 gapper, sooted connector, defending my blind, with a 9 high fl draw???

Seems to be an issue here. I wouldn't, OR maybe I would, if I had a great read... If you can play them Negreanu like, go ahead, defend.

With that flop, which is nowhere near a 'perfect' flop for 97d...

umm, well, that is a little baffling. But, getting CR and calling is a huh, what? Need feedback from OP on that one?

my bad, I apologize iffin I hurt anyone's feeling, but, this is poker, get over it, deal with it, or play tetris, or chess. backgammon has an element of luck, so you may want to stay away from that, lol.

The problem with pot odds, oops, fundamental problem with pot odds, is:

Drum roll please....

When you make the pot big enuff, with mostly your "used to be MYchips", by playing stupid, one, can make good pot odds reasoning to throw away your last chips into a pot, one, has little chance of winning.

Just some extra fyi, pot odds, big reason why man can program kompewter to beat hooman chess champion, but can't program kompewter to beat poker anyone????

Ok, I share too much

And yet you say nothing.

I don't get the converted Hand History (I wish the site would either fix it or ditch it)

Blinds are 300/600 and only SB and BB are playing so that's 900. SB raised 900 which makes 1800, and BB called 600 which makes 2,400.

So why is the pot size 1,500?

Preflop, you've not got enough chips to take a speculative flop. Fold, and steal the blinds yourself when you can be first in the pot against a BB with the correct sized stack.

Preflop I agree with you, but postflop I think you are way off. OP is putting the pressure on here, opponent folds to the flop bet and this HH wouldn't be analysed. Flush draw + fold equity + low stack size means you've got to make a stab at the pot. After he calls the flop bet you've got no choice but to take the hand to the end, even if you know you are drawing thin. You can't fold and leave 3K or 4K chips, you need to close your eyes and take a punt.

And H2H, hitting a diamond will be enough. You can't worry about opponent having 2 higher diamonds.

Where does this come from? What do you have to say? I see no comments on the hand from you. Did I miss something? No.

Ok, think what you want, the prefl call, taint bad, see last post. Everything postflop is where the OP loses, er, wait, stacks off with a 9 high fl draw? Postflop is where this hand went all wrong, read the HH.

yeah, ignore the fact there may be better fldraws, only 5/13d have you beat, iffin you even get there. sure, let's discount that other players may have fl draws? are you joking?

WVHillbilly would know...

huh, what? a punt may be different to soccer than NFL, but, then:

preflop: reraise
postflop:allin, no check, get raised, call, wtf?

That is not what happened...

The OP played this hand poorly, imo, get over it.

End Game of an MTT is very different to early game (I'm assuming from your post that you haven't played many MTTs or at least gone deep in them). OP has got into a situation that, after preflop call he only has 5,200 chips, between a half and a third of the average stack on the table. Blinds are 300/600, he is not going to be able to play a hand in the future without being pot committed from now on. So with a flush draw, this hand needs to be played to the end - there is no point counting outs, the MTT has not gone to plan so far and you are in a bad situation (and why talk about "other players" having higher flush draws - there is only one opponent in the pot, read the HH more carefully).

Post flop, you've got to bet - 2 ways of winning the pot, opponent folds, or he calls / raises and you catch a card to win. if you check it down, you've only got one way to win - standard MTT theory. OP bet 1,500 and was raised, but how can he fold now? Folding leaves 3,700 chips, that isn't enough. You've got to put the rest of the chips in, knowing you are probably a fair bit behind, and try and catch an out to double up.

Read Harrington on Holdem - Volune 2 - i think you'll find it invaluable in improving your game.

assume what you want, but donking off your chips with a marginal hand, works both ways. Not a good idea, early, middle, late, in an MTT, or anytime, fyi.

The hand was played poorly. I'm not gonna debate this much further, unless WVHillbilly offers some useful content, which, having a good read, won't happen, lol.

[deleted][/deleted] Well, that didn't happen. No need to skool me, and I think it is spelled "volume". If you discount the chances, that you are crushed here, well, there is always another tourney...

I'd bet you haven't had a good read since Moby Dick in the 7th grade and if I had to guess that was probably last year.

You really should shut up once in a while and listen to those who have forgotten more than you'll ever know. People like:
AG, who ran the pokerstove numbers earlier.
ChuckTs, who agreed with postflop play.
robwhufc, who even suggested further reading to help you further your game.

You dismissed them all. I ask you what's more likely that you're the only person in this thread who is right or the other way around?

Now before you spout off any further nonsense (your post really are nearly unintelligible, hence my earlier post), please post your super awesome tourney results. I'm sure you've made the money in some freeroll somewhere along the way.

Until next time.

lol^3 they posted more than insults, lol...

that's cubed, lol.

yeah, that, I'm a 46% favorite pokerstove analysis, just proves my point.

That is merely your opinion. I can't find a live person, who disagrees with my drivel analysis of this hand.

What's your analysis, btw? I guess I missed that somewhere...

lol^3

My last post in this thread:

If you really can't find someone who disgrees with your play either the aren't your friends or are so cowardly they won't express a dissenting opinion. that must be some fun poker conversations if no one ever disagrees.

wtf the point is that if you don't shove that flop, why are you in the hand at all?

This thread is epic lulz.

I really got a lot out of this thread. It really reveals that although there are different ways to see a hand, not all approaches are equally valid. It's easy to get lost in the bluster of the strong opinion; doing so blinds one to the nuts and bolts of quality analysis.

Not all opinions are equal, and an opinion does not gain validity if its merely restated with more bluster and rancor.

It's OK to be wrong and it's OK to make mistakes, but we can't learn if we're ego-blinded and unable to re-examine our own positions dispassionately.

Wading through this thread has helped train me to recognize qualitative differences in approaches to hand analysis.

I thank you all.

Gary

P. S. - As I grow in this forum, I'm learning that some of your names have earned my respect and attention. It's odd to see those people maligned.

he had to double up sometime... and that was a nice spot in his view

I think the summary is simple-
Should have folded preflop but since went it should NOT chase a flush draw.
2 simple rules.

Don't live by idioms. That's been ingrained in me too, always recalling Doyle's admonition not to chase flushes and straights. But it's an over-simplified slogan that does not recognize the complexity of the game. It's fine with me if you and pOK live by the idiom, because we need opponents with those kinds of holes in their games. pOK seems to offend a lot of people and he's constantly berating the "flushers." Fine. Never chase a flush.

Ignore the reality of odds and pot odds, and ignore the fact that there are even times when your trailing hand is favored to win by the river.

It's not my intent to insult or berate you. I'm trying to be helpful. If analytical evidence supports a flush or straight draw, it's simply the correct move in spite of any idioms, slogans or "gut feelings." Simple facts.

Gary the Worden

I found it because I'd read some pretty remarkable recent posts by pOK and I checked out his post history to see whether his recent posts were typical. They are. I'd like to welcome him into the family of useful posters. He starts most responses with an insult, then even when there's overwhelming evidence that his position is simply wrong, becomes more entrenched and slips in a couple more insults. I'm worried about him. He's missing out on some opportunities to improve his game. Lots of good wisdom out there, but if you're closed to it - it does you no good. I'm sincerely not antagonistic at all. I'm a peacemaker and would just like to open his eyes. But I imagine he'll have a juicy insult for me and tell me it's none of my business - and he's right. Play the game anyway you want to. And of course, I want there to be people out there falling on their petards.

You are both wrong and right at the same time :-)
My point is that in MOST cases chasing a flash is ANALYTICALLY the wrong thing to do! That is why it is a rule of thumb not to chase it.
However, if you analyze the hand and think you have statistically a good chance against the opponent then you WILL chase the flash.
These simple rules are rule of thumb - Easy to remember and get you out of trouble but should not be adhered to at all times.
Like I said you are both wrong and right - Poker...