You should never be a pathetic calling station.

Here's why

YouTube- PokerStars.tv - EPT 3 Copenhagen - Elky vs Toth

What do you guys think of this? I think Toth is a pathetic calling station. I do not consider calling as option. It's either bet or fold. If he betted, he would've taken down the pot. Calling stations let people catch up with their hands.

Toth played the hand how it should have been played.

An interesting hand. Love Elky's face at the end!
Embarressed? I don't think so.

I disagree. If Toth believed Elky for a better hand on the turn, Toth should fold. If he doesn't believe Elky, Toth should shove on the turn. Calling station make people catch up with their hands. this is good example. Or at least i think so. toth played this bad.

If you know how elky plays, calling down is a good idea. If he shoves elky folds out worse and calls with hands that beat him, so a shove is spewy.

that is so sick, is it about luck on river or all the game play?

I'm not gonna say i'm right, you're wrong or whatever but for me, I would've chosen bet/fold option than to call. On the turn, if I was faced with that bet, I would be thinking "could elky have paired the queen? can he have made the flush? or is he semi-bluffing with nut flush draw? is he trying to steal the pot? is he bluffing?" From there, I would narrow it down to decide whether I should bet or fold. I wouldn't consider calling as an option. Maybe this is my leak but I have bad experience with doubting and calling. I like to make a firm decision than having uncertainty while letting people catch up to improve their hands.

yikes least u see it on live play 2 happend 2 me many times

his smile at the end said it all lol

When I was a beginner, I faced several of these hands where I was in the lead and then get outdrawed. But if I analyze this situation, not only me, but all cardschat members too, then is Elky really lucky or did Toth played his hand very horribly? Toth called on the turn because he wasn't sure where he stand. He wasn't sure if his pair of Jacks were good or bad. He had to call to see the next card and see how it turns out. I believe this is a definition of a calling station.

I don't know why you need to act so pompous. Sometimes I think the only thing that's marginal is your attitude.

Anyway, I think OP has some valid points. Whether I would call the guy a calling station is another thing. Did he play the hand bad? Of course he did, he ended up doubling up his opponent on a horrendous call. What's so hard to see about that?

That's a perfect example of a hand that was either played alright or played badly, depending on your perspective.

Here's a way of looking at this. If Ekly doesn't hit his miracle river card, then Toth looks good. But, because he did, Toth's an idiot?

It's so hard to say. My only thing is he COULD have put Elky to the test on the turn, but given his wide range, if he flopped a set, then Toth shoving would look like a bad play.

When Elky's playing his A-game, it's tough to beat, because he can win with such a wide variety of hands, that putting him on a particular range will either pay off handsomely or will felt you.

I think he played the hand fine until the river. Calling an all in shove with BOTH flush and straight possibilities showing on the board is wreckless, not to mention he called it with 2nd pair! lol

I can understand that the guy made a correct read initially but by the river he needed to re address the situation and come to the realization that this was tournament poker, not a cash game and an all in river shove bluff for all your chips is an extreme rarity at that stage of the tournament. Even the craziest, looosest maniac in the world would have a difficult time making an all in river bluff for all his chips during a final table of a tournament.

Tell me if I'm being result-oriented and having a flawed poker mind but when I was a beginner, this is what happened, and decided to learn from it in this way.

I dont' know exact chipsizes but I'll tell you something similar like this happened. I was dealt pocket 6s. UTG raises. I called. Flop comes out 2 5 9 all rainbow. He bets out pot size. I wasn't sure if he's bluffing and just making c-bet, or if he actually has a 9 or overpair, or even a set. I called. Turn comes out 2. He bets out pot size again. I wasn't sure if he's betting out with two overcards, pair of 9s, overcards, etc. River comes out King. He shoves all-in which was half the pot. i called. He rolls over Ace King.
Beginner/Amateur would say "OMG, LUCKY DONK. HE GOT SO LUCKY ON THE RIVER"

But if I analyze this hand, was it his fault for bluffing or was it my fault for not being aggressive and not trusting my reads, allowing him to improve his hand? If I reraised, he would've folded and prevented this from happenign. From this point, I learned and figured the best thing to do was on the flop is to become confident and choose one or the other. Either reraise and make him fold if I think my opponent is bluffing, missed the flop, and is making c-bet. If I'm afraid or if I feel like I'm beat,based on hand history and opponent's past plays, because he might have overpair or a 9 based on his past play, right move is to fold and move on. If I make a misread, I face the consequence. There are more times I take down the pot than being a caling station and trying to win by a showdown. From this point, I decided, it's either bet or fold. I was studying some books and many pros said "bettors are winners, callers are losers". When I make continuation bets or play like elky sometimes but get lucky on the river, I hear many fishes calling me "omg, lucky donk". But is it my fault for attempting to bluff or was it his fault for not trusting his read and not betting me out, allowing me to improve my hand? I ended up posting this video because this video reminded me of major step I took to fix my old leak of not being a calling station.

A lot of this stuff looks mysteriously idiotic to us if we don't know what they're trying to accomplish, and what they're thinking the other guy is thinking. I agree w marginal, raising the turn would be a mistake - what are we accomplishing? Anything that calls crushes us, and anything that folds denies us the possibility of clipping a river bluff. Call it greed or whatever you like, but it's sound reasoning.

The beauty/horror of this hand is that the river looks like a 100% complete and total blank - Toth has to feel that if he was ahead on the turn, he's ahead on the river - so the primary question in his mind is going to be whether Elky was ahead on the turn - and the answer he comes up with is obviously that while Elky could have hands in his range that were ahead on the turn, he has more hands in his range that were behind on the turn.

Let me expand a little then. Elky is a ridiculously aggressive player who will bet a lot with air. He range is not just the nuts, it includes a lot of hands that missed this board. He is also very willing to put his whole stack in on a bluff.

Now to your hand, The problem with raising is this, you only fold out hands you beat and get called when you are dominated. You win when you get value from hands you beat and you dont lose too much when you are beat, by making a raise you allow villain to play perfectly against you and when he has a hand you lose a stack, when he doesnt you lose bluffs on later streets.

There are obviously sometimes when you should be raising and sometimes when you should be calling but the situations in this thread are not the times when you want to be raising and that does not make you a calling station.



Also, you are being very very results oriented, just because the card hit does not mean you played it wrong, it just means you got unlucky.

I didn't watch the video clip but can respond to the comment you wrote here about 'bet' or 'fold'.. don't 'call'. There are actually many situations/scenrios where calling is far better (or check/call, etc.). Bet or fold is kinda old school imo.

agreed ^
I hadn't read any of the posts on this thread yet either.... til' just now and read this one here. OP I suggest you read it over .

pokerloves me.. read over the comments these guys have taken the time to write down for you on here. It is solid advice coming from guys who know what they're talking about.

Maybe I'm just very biased towards Elky since it reminds me of my old beat from my lack of aggression and Elky's my favorite player but I don't like the way Toth played. Thank you for solid advices because I do retract statement of bet/fold option. But when I watched that video, it honestly didn't look like Toth was slow-playing.

Marginal is correct about elky being hyper aggressive and sometimes, it's better to let elky rape himself but in this video, it looked like Toth only called because he wasn't sure where he stands with his Jacks. I don't think he thought he was ahead and try to trap elky for him to rape himself. Because I do not understand why he would call the all-in bet on the river when there were so many hands that can beat him, from pair of queens, two pairs, set, straight and flush possibilities.

I'm looking at this video again for like uh.....8th time? I don't know why, this guy just looked like a calling station. If you're very certain that Elky's bluffing, then i would agree that calling would be better. But I dont' think that was the case here.

I dont' think this guy knew that Elky was bluffing. He was unsure where he stands with his Jacks. He looked very uncertain whether Elky can have a flush, pair of Queens, or anything. I don't think this guy was slow-playing his winning hand. His river call was very stupid and pathetic. He called an all-in bet when there's so many hands that can beat him, from pair of queens, two pairs, set, flush possibilities, straight possibility, everything. River call was so horrible. I mean, honestly, what can he beat? Only thing he can beat there is a bluff, which i doubt elky would do when he has a position and could've checked behind. I doubt that elky would've shoved on the river if he didn't complete his straight.

You've just got to hate straights after seeing this video!

i would have reraised preflop
i would have raised after the flop
i would have raised on the turn
i would not have a decision if we got to the river because my money is in
slow playing is death far too often

I'm a slowplayer but this is not the situation to slow play with top pair being as low as a jack. There are 12 overcards in the deck so you need to be betting this flop to avoid scare cards like ace king or queen.If you check this flop you need to fold to the overcard on the turn. If your opponent is a loose player you need to stand up with top pair top kick and take it down.He could have just as easily lost to q-10 off.

I really enjoyed reading this thread. There's some interesting viewpoints.

Personally I think he played it a bit weak preflop and then on the flop. Course it's easy to say when you can see the cards but if I see two spades on the flop and I have TpTk then I want to make sure I end it right there.

Then again I play for quarters so what do I know?

I feel like I am basicly a calling station in a situation where I have a good hand but not the nuts and someone else is doing the betting so I just call since the chips are getting in the pot, is that a calling station. I do let the other player catch up possibly but in most cases I have to risk a very big bet to get them to fold when they could either have a better hand or still call and catch their draw, I feel I am trying to control my loss in either case since I dont know what they have.

This is an interesting thread with lots of good points. I for one don't think we have enough info. This is one hand and to say Toth is a calling station is hard to say. The missing info me is how had Elky been playing in the last 20 hands or so? Was he super aggressive? Seems like Elky is a very aggressive player, so I don't think calling is a bad option when you have a hand. I like the idea of letting aggressive players hang themselves. Regardless of how Elky had been playing, I would've like to seen a blocking bet by Toth on the river.

This is a good one.

ok .....i don't think the person is a calling station.

If you flop a 4 card straight draw... you going to keep calling no matter how much the other person is betting and raising.

This is why I hate Poker tv to a degree its entertaining to watch but very misleading. They do not show you all the hands but only the big pots not exciting action, plays which differ from the norm may not look great in isolation but perhaps history behind it makes it make more sense. perhaps Elky had been a maniac for ages and constantly shoving on the river, probably not so severe but the point is without the history judging play when its at such a high level is not really fair. You are seeing a hand in isolation, From my experience I have got in situations against players who are constantly re raising me, almost every hand and then a situation like this comes up they raise my blind I re raise with a hand like AJ they re raise again, I just can't put them on a big hand for certain because they have re raised me many times, then I see a flop of J97 or something can't get away and oh great this time they have QQ or KK in there hand and I am screwed.

Did I play bad there maybe but the history makes it more understandable I have since learned from these situations and generally try to keep a pot small if such circumstances occur.

Has this been happening with these two did Elky Shove a lot of rivers, maybe maybe not if you can show me the full sequence of events all the hands leading up to this one then we can try and argue whether the players are good or not, this in isolation though I don't think much can be said for it.

ummm I hope not

I dont understand what hands you would hope to get value out of by betting the turn.... the hand was played great and elky runs as elky does, binking his gin card on the river.

Elky has a very wide range, so raising turn will most likely eliminate the hands that will probably shove river, make sense? You can allow him to see the river for a good price as hes out of position on a relatively safe board and because hes so hyper aggro.

...what?

The calling station was an idiot the whole hand. Either bet the flop or fold on other streets if you're going to be that passive.. if he raises your flop bet then obviously you got a decision but he decided to check top pair top kicker?

Did you read the thread?

I read the thread and am still thinking I would want to raise that flop. Knowing Elky has such a huge range I would want to bet TPTK to try to get something info wise. If Im going to play AJ I am almost going to bet when my jack hits without an overcard. By checking I am simply going to be wondering even more where I am at, which is exactly what good LAG players like Elky want me to be.
I am not saying Toth played it wrong or poorly, I am only saying how I would play it.

Great thread, lots of excellent perspectives, some over my head. Im still learning.