Are you better playing against good or bad players???

Seems like a daft question, but it was prompted by this answer to a post

I think I am correct thinking that if u play in any poker game where u r `sucked out` on a regular basis, the idea would be to tighten up and play strong cards.

I would also guess that u will lose lots of hands when u r a big fav, but win some massive pots when u get your chips in good.

I do think, however, that loose/ fishy players r harder to contend with in MTT because of `when` the fish catch. Nothing worse than playing a great game, making zero mistakes and your set of aces on the flop being taken out by runner runner 8 high flush!!!

The very few freerolls and micro buy-in tournies I've played I've done well in. Small sample size, but once you get a decent stack it becomes very straightforward to play "good" poker and accumulate chips.

Bad players are bad because they are exploitable.

I have to agree that this is not a good question. The whole idea of poker is that over time the better players will win. But you have to consider variability, the luck factor that lets a weaker player win a variable percantage of chips. Different games have different levels of variation, and so do different stakes. No-limit Hold 'Em has a higher variation than limit Hold 'Em, because a bad player can make up for alot of bad play with one lucky hand. Similarly, pot-limit has a higher variation than fixed-limit. Omaha Hi-Lo probably has the least variation of any game because it is the most complex. Lower stakes games have higher variation, because people are more willing to chase. Early levels of tournaments have a high variation because many people are playing "Chip up early or go home." Late levels of tournaments have a low variation because the Ladder Principle makes people play tight.

So it's not really good players versus bad players that are causing this "Bad Beat Syndrome"; rather it is high variation versus low variation. When you play high variation games for high variation stakes, you are going to eat some bad beats.

Very insightful observations, quite impressed. Comment about the Omaha HL, and I take it you mean FL, or else it probably holds no water at all. But why would it hold the least variation on acct of its complexity? From all I've observed and read about Omaha, and lesser variation comes from the fixed limit, and the fact you'll split the pot more often than the HI variation.

On the 2nd point, just think that over enough time, the variation won't matter. And I'll bet you'd agree to that. It's just a matter of a good player being able to ride out the variation 1) financially (obviously) 2) mentally (don't let bad beats tilt you and/or change your game, etc.)

That comes from a book on Omaha, which claims it has the least variation. I agree with the book, because the harder the game, the fewer dummies play.

Omaha is the same as Hold 'Em, in the regard that no-limit has the highest variation, pot-limit has less, and fixed-limit has the least.

Over enough time, you are right, the variation doesn't really matter. But Omaha should give you lower peaks and shallower valleys than Hold 'Em.

A good comparison would be national economies. A country like the US has more ups and downs than a highly regulated economy like France. France will never have the big booms and bubbles the US has, and the bad times will never be as bad.

Great post, it all makes a lot of sense. Funny, I'm currently reading Hwang's Omaha book. The chapter on straight draws alone, including the types of 'wraps' (Broadway, Maine to Spain, lower/middle/upper gappers, 2 gappers) and possible outs (some nut, some not) for every straight-draw type starting hand is enough to send anyone racing to the medicine cabinet.

Also funny, on page 1, he says "In PLO, or any Omaha game for that matter - the difference between a good players and a great player is not nearly as great as the distance between a good player and a bad player."

He agrees with the lesser volatility, especially for HL. Far less of a bankroll needed than for holdem. So good analogy to France.

personally i like playing vs some1 better than me. that way i can learn, practice and improve my game. theres nothing i can learn from calling station or random button pushers.

I just love it when after a tournament is over, the so called nowledgable
players sit down at a table I am playing at and then proceed to lose. And bemoan all the stupid plays made at the table. LOL I just nod and silently agree and take thier money. I mean if you raise with AA and get 8 callers,
welcome to low linit.

I think I am a better player when I play against someone who plays more like me....I am a conservative Tight player. It seems when I get involved on a table with loose players who raise every hand or push alot with junk I tend to not do as well.
I wish I could learn to switch gears and fit right in with theses players but Its so hard to make my mind work that way.
Thats what I def. need to work on though...always learning in the game of poker.

I would much rather play a tourney with the 500 best MTT players in the world. I wouldn't get sucked out on as much and I actually might have a shot to win.

Don't make the mistake lots of players do and lower your starting hands to fit in. But definetly play more more suited connecters, small pairs, etc.
When you hit the flop or are getting great odds on a draw, get agressive.
What more can you ask for? these sort of games should be your most profitable. Dont forget to congratuate the player who hits a one outer on you LOL I always say something like, thats why I raised but I couldn't get you to lay it down.

Bad players...because they're bad.

you are better off against bad players because in the long run better players will win more... the key is limiting your losses and maximizing your gains

YEa bad beats happen more against the bad players as they are idiots calling on gut shots and needing runner runner...but they hit and you lose all your chips because you put them all-in being the heavy favorite... say the best thing is to avoid that hot player and play your good hands effectivly...fold when you feel you are beat

it seems I do worse when people just keep going all in hand after hand cause eventually I just give up figure they have nothing since they keep going all in so then I just go all in and of course even though I have good cards and they have bad ones they still win so I would have to say I do worse with donks at the table

yeah playing against these kind of players can be frustrating but if you play patieint you can still get a good roll going just remember patience is the game and you will be winning in no time

I agree with the person who said that you should just play tight and accumulate chips...then just play good poker. I play tight especially until the rebuy is finished...the players are crazy during rebuys and a 2,7, is often enuff cards to let someone go all in...In tourneys I prefer playing bad players..they'll eventually be easier to read.

When playing bad players you need to be upfront with what your doing.
i.e. Bluff alot less and bet your good hands

When playing good player you can use the full atillery of tactics to out play them.

Easy money with the bad, but far more interesting poker against the good.

i think playing with bad players they tend to play junk cash lucky 2 pair with there 26 off or something like that playing with good people unlikly to get that

The best players in the world rely on small-ball poker when playing in no limit hold'em tournaments. And though it is the optimal strategy, it's not meant for players of all skill levels. You must have superior hand-reading and people-reading skills for it to be effective.

I'd rather play the donks than BE the donk.

Without a doubt I play better against better players. I think it is because you can rely on the good players making the right call instead of going all in donk style with an A Rag.

honestly, there is more to be said about someone who loses a good hand to a good player. i find that playing against average-good poker players makes me think more, making me play stronger. playing against weak/bad poker players, while easier to build a stack, is more frustrating than rewarding to me. the all in style makes me question an otherwise solid hand, then, after getting a feel for how the donk is playing, you of course risk calling the first good hand he/she might be playing. it's one of the biggest turn offs about online poker.

chris

if i could i would probably play with only pros 1) cuz you learn alot from them and usually become better 2) alot less suck outs 3) advanually you will become a pro yourself. yes you will probably lose alot of money at first but i would consider it like taking a paying class.

I'd rather play against good players because I'm sick of losing hands with some donks who flop full house holding 10,3o off position...

You cant play against bad players everything is left to chance with them and online chance favors the bad players. Thats why i can believe its rigged because it dosent make sense what happens all the time.

i much prefer playing against ppl better than myself.
If you don't, how the hell could u get better yourself.
plus the obvious frustration off numb nut donks taking a large pot holding the 72off.
Everyone needs a level to aspire to.
i'm aiming for Daniel Negreanu

I liken that to my Tiger Woods theory that Tiger prolly could have won the Masters at 15 or 16. Even though he dominated his peers the level of difficulty never allowed him to really strut his stuff.

Poker is patience. It's my view that the better the players in the game the more your patience pays off. Because the good players have little info to read your play.


Just as important or even more important is an appropriate bankroll.

Playing against better players gives you a better learning experience.
That being said, playing against worse players is where you make your money. I'll take the money.
I've built 2 bankrolls from scratch online and now I'm starting to build one live
from 300 bucks that was owed to me from a friend.
Believe me, I don't want to be running into any sharks with one buy-in, playing
1-2 NL. I'm looking for the most fish I can find in AC. So far its been pretty easy. Bring me fish any day..... I'll deal with the sharks later.

I agree,the bad players suck and suck out a lot and end up donking the chip you had away.I am in a tournament late in the game and have AK suited first position raises and I rerais,he goes allin with A6 off suit cant understand why? I can see raising and trying to steal the pot but when you are reraised you gotta figure you are at least out kicked but the donk hit his 6 and cripples me.I would think a good player would not play or lay that hand down later in the game

On the rare night when my post-flop hands are holding up to the chase donkeys, it's great and how can you not milk a couple to pad your bank.

But for the most part I'd rather be sitting with strong players.

I'd rather play a good player and lose because they play the cards and their opponents. Unlike those donks who constantly power bet and fish with nothing. If I want to play lotto i'll hit a freebie table and go all in blind.

Thanks for your interesting comments. My opinion is, after playing for 3+ years now, I would love to play donks any day for this reason...

Give me a 3:1 advantage anytime!!!

The biggest poker leason I have been give was here, on this site. One of the guys explained really well why "The outcome of the hand is not important. The important thing is to get your chips in when ahead."

That, IMO, is the basic principle of poker. Everything else is experience.

This is an example - I was almost certain the guy caught the ace...

Full Tilt Poker Game #10874171958: $10 + $1 Tournament (81707045), Table 3 - 250/500 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 17:33:24 ET - 2009/02/27
Seat 1: Ronaldadio (7,112)
Seat 2: pure50player (10,544)
Seat 3: COUNT TRON (42,425)
Seat 4: OLLIE ALI (17,547)
Seat 5: akristjan (9,832)
Seat 6: KaiserWilhelm3 (3,701)
pure50player posts the small blind of 250
COUNT TRON posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ronaldadio [Jd Kh Kc Jh]
OLLIE ALI folds
akristjan folds
KaiserWilhelm3 folds
Ronaldadio raises to 1,750
pure50player calls 1,500
COUNT TRON folds
*** FLOP *** [Ac Ks Ah]
pure50player checks
Ronaldadio has 15 seconds left to act
Ronaldadio bets 2,000
pure50player raises to 4,000
Ronaldadio raises to 5,362, and is all in
pure50player calls 1,362
Ronaldadio shows [Jd Kh Kc Jh] I`m about a 60% fav so I have done a good job.
pure50player shows [As 3s 4d 6c]
*** TURN *** [Ac Ks Ah] A♦ I now have no outs but I got my chips in good.
*** RIVER *** [Ac Ks Ah Ad] 3♦
Ronaldadio shows a full house, Aces full of Kings, for high
pure50player shows four of a kind, Aces, for high
pure50player wins the pot (14,724) with four of a kind, Aces
Ronaldadio stands up
pure50player stands up
COUNT TRON stands up
OLLIE ALI stands up
akristjan stands up
KaiserWilhelm3 stands up
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14,724 | Rake 0
Board: [Ac Ks Ah Ad 3d]
Seat 1: Ronaldadio (button) showed [Jd Kh Kc Jh] and lost with HI: a full house, Aces full of Kings
Seat 2: pure50player (small blind) showed [As 3s 4d 6c] and won (14,724) with HI: four of a kind, Aces
Seat 3: COUNT TRON (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: OLLIE ALI didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: akristjan didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: KaiserWilhelm3 didn't bet (folded)

For myself personally, loose bad players are hard to read, and some although bad can still end up playing a good hand in a bad way. You have to play mainly your cards when against these people and get your money in good and pray they dont suck out. 'Donks' as such throw my game into chaos, something i shouldnt let happen i find myself lowering my range quite a bit, when i should i be doing the opposite. If i know im playing for big money or with great players, i play at my best, focus more, and play some of my best poker. 'Donks' are good to make money from, great players are good to play GOOD poker against.

At a cash table I'd like to play against 8 horrible players. In a tournament I'd probably also prefer to play against 8 horrible players... It'd help if they would all announce (in some trustworthy way) that they were all horrible so I would know what bets to respect.