WSOP ME Final Table to be delayed...

#36 01-05-2008, 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

What does 9th place get, $500K+? That may not be a lot of money to Daniel Negreanu and the other morons that have signed off on this, but that's a hell of a lot of money to me. You are supposed to wait 4 months for it, and then play live on ESPN for free? And this is a good idea?

right, which is why the bread would benefit the ninth place finisher-- they now have time to negotiate a deal that will potentially give them more money long term than they actually win.

ESPN will decide what deals you can or cannot negotiate. Someone who has made a final table has zero marketable value unless the sponsor can get the logo on the telly. ESPN will decide that - they have paying advertisers who will not want competitors to be shown on people's logos. And a lot of players are sponsored anyway, is a Pokerroom player going to be able to accept a lucrative offer from Full Tilt? What do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

Things change in 4 months. What if you are in a coma? What if your wife is? What if you are in jail? What if you don't want to come to America twice? What if you lose your form?

See above. Probability of this is so low as to be statistically moronic to consider, imo.

I considered it, so i'm a moron? Why is it a low ridiculously low probability that someone who is able to play the 14th day of a 2 week event in July could be unable to play in both July and November? From my own personal experience, I was told a couple of years ago that my (then) 4 year old daughter had Cancer. Had I been told that on July 13th or whatever, of course I would have been devasted, but being a thousand of miles away from home with a flight booked a couple of days later, I imagine I would have played on. Had I been told the same a day before I was due to fly back out in November? I don't know, probably not. People do get hit by buses, they do contract illnesses. And what about people stranded at airports due to a Airline strike?

What about people that have got jobs that don't enable them to take holidays at 4 month's notice? Surgeons? Policemen? Armed Forces? Maybe they can pack the job in if they are refused permission, and wreck their career? Is this better than having it played out in one go? I don't really know what you do (House Husband?), but not everyone can drop and go like you. I don't think that overseas players have been considered for one second (and if you read the views from European pros regarding the WSOP, they never really have been).

This change is supposed to be for THIS year isn't it? The main event is early July, it's May now, so that's 2 months. Absolutely scandalous to propose a change this massive, when numerous qualification events have already been held. I hope the entries will be way down because of this.

#37 01-05-2008, 5:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

It's all completely academic, of course, because the official structure sheet for this year's Main Event has them playing the final table on July 16...

It's been changed officially:

World Series of Poker - Official Tournament Coverage and Results

#38 01-05-2008, 5:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

And I reiterate: this discussion is 100% redundant, as it's about a rumour that's 100% incorrect.

It's in USA Today (I looked at their website, not the OP poker news site). It's on 2+2 forum (and was rumored there early April). It may not be agreed yet, but it's no way 100% incorrect.

ESPN is the tail that is wagging the WSOP dog.

#39 01-05-2008, 5:24 PM

Oh, and it's been officially announced on the WSOP site.

World Series of Poker - Official Tournament Coverage and Results

Guess that makes you 100% wrong!

#40 01-05-2008, 5:27 PM

Well, Daniel is in favor of this change, which shocks me, quite frankly. I would have bet that he would have led the charge on the "anti" side.

#41 01-05-2008, 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger390

Well, Daniel is in favor of this change, which shocks me, quite frankly. I would have bet that he would have led the charge on the "anti" side.

Daniel will be pimping his ass out to the finalists as a mentor / trainer for the 4 months. He is looking out for number 1, not for average Joe.

#42 01-05-2008, 5:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robwhufc

ESPN will decide what deals you can or cannot negotiate. Someone who has made a final table has zero marketable value unless the sponsor can get the logo on the telly. ESPN will decide that - they have paying advertisers who will not want competitors to be shown on people's logos. And a lot of players are sponsored anyway, is a Pokerroom player going to be able to accept a lucrative offer from Full Tilt? What do you think?

I considered it, so i'm a moron? Why is it a low ridiculously low probability that someone who is able to play the 14th day of a 2 week event in July could be unable to play in both July and November? From my own personal experience, I was told a couple of years ago that my (then) 4 year old daughter had Cancer. Had I been told that on July 13th or whatever, of course I would have been devasted, but being a thousand of miles away from home with a flight booked a couple of days later, I imagine I would have played on. Had I been told the same a day before I was due to fly back out in November? I don't know, probably not. People do get hit by buses, they do contract illnesses. And what about people stranded at airports due to a Airline strike?

What about people that have got jobs that don't enable them to take holidays at 4 month's notice? Surgeons? Policemen? Armed Forces? Maybe they can pack the job in if they are refused permission, and wreck their career? Is this better than having it played out in one go? I don't really know what you do (House Husband?), but not everyone can drop and go like you. I don't think that overseas players have been considered for one second (and if you read the views from European pros regarding the WSOP, they never really have been).

This change is supposed to be for THIS year isn't it? The main event is early July, it's May now, so that's 2 months. Absolutely scandalous to propose a change this massive, when numerous qualification events have already been held. I hope the entries will be way down because of this.

lol

HELLO, they are not asking you to come back months later and play your 'Day 2' !!

It's the final table.

You know, where MILLIONS of dollars are at stack, and you know MONTH in advance that you'll be playing.

Guess you probably can't get off work, huh?

So, yes, it's totally idiotic to say that you'll have some sort of scheduling conflict, or that this is some ludicrous and outrageous thing that you have to do at "the drop of a hat".

As to some traumatic life altering/ending event occurring to you or your family members, yep that could happen. It could also happen the night before the final table in July too. It is my contention that there is statistically no significant change in the chances of this happening over any given three to four month period.

#43 01-05-2008, 6:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliengenius

So, yes, it's totally idiotic to say that you'll have some sort of scheduling conflict, or that this is someludicrous and outrageous thing that you have to do at "the drop of a hat".

No, it is not idiotic to say you have a scheduling conflict. The WSOP schedule was announced months ago. People that want to play in the Main Event have already made plans based on that schedule, they have booked hotels, they have booked flights, they have booked time off work, they have arranged work cover etc.

Now 2 months before the event, they have changed the schedule and have added days in November. Can you really not think of NOTHING that you could possibly have planned for November which you wouldn't want to miss? Your wedding? Your daughters wedding? Birth of a child? An operation? A round the world cruise? Christening? Visit of a relative from overseas? An important work visit / meeting /trip? You can't think of anything that would create a difficulty?

This hasn't been changed for NEXT year, when you can make plans based on what the schedule is. It's been changed for THIS year, TWO months before the event, and two months AFTER original schedule was announced.

And then there are the other things that could happen in 4 months which you DONT know about - i've already posted about that.

#44 01-05-2008, 6:14 PM

Rob: One would have to read the fine print, but it's possible that some lawyer might read the original announcement and an associated rules as a legally binding contract, especially for those who have already qualified or paid their entry based on those rules.

#45 01-05-2008, 6:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robwhufc

Oh, and it's been officially announced on the WSOP site.

World Series of Poker - Official Tournament Coverage and Results

Guess that makes you 100% wrong!

I guess it does - you think they'd update the official structure sheet, huh...

As for Negranu being in favour of it (and the rest of the PAC members), my guess reading between the lines is they're saying "The Main Event is just a donkey crapshoot... and we've got the $50K HORSE event to keep us amused, so do what you like!"

Game-wise, there's no way this change can work in the favour of any pro that makes the final table.

#46 01-05-2008, 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

I guess it does - you think they'd update the official structure sheet, huh...

As for Negranu being in favour of it (and the rest of the PAC members), my guess reading between the lines is they're saying "The Main Event is just a donkey crapshoot... and we've got the $50K HORSE event to keep us amused, so do what you like!"

Game-wise, there's no way this change can work in the favour of any pro that makes the final table.

Sorry but for a pro that makes the final table, they're not exactly worried about a few months of an amateur getting better. If you're a poker pro you truly believe you are the best player at the table. Is a few months of coaching going to transform an amateur to one of the best players in the world? I don't think Phil Ivey's worrying about a Jamie Gold getting good enough to beat him in the time off.

#47 01-05-2008, 6:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

Sorry but for a pro that makes the final table, they're not exactly worried about a few months of an amateur getting better. If you're a poker pro you truly believe you are the best player at the table. Is a few months of coaching going to transform an amateur to one of the best players in the world? I don't think Phil Ivey's worrying about a Jamie Gold getting good enough to beat him in the time off.

While granted, they may not be wetting their pants in fear at the prospect, they're still giving up an edge. They're not going to improve significantly in the meantime - their opponents might.

Like I said earlier, I suspect this is probably a "Meh, we gave up on the Main Event years ago anyway" move on the part of the pros that were consulted.

#48 01-05-2008, 7:00 PM

I still say 3 months is a little bit of a stretch for it to still be the same event. Maybe a month, but this turns the rest of the tournament into a huge satellite to a one table event.

I also think everyone needs to calm down about this calling people's opinion's idiotic and all that is just immature, because in the end this will hopefully help poker for the exposure and build up. If not they will go back to the original format.

But truely no one here will probaly ever be effected by this decision (but if you are affected then more power to you.)

#49 01-05-2008, 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likminutz

But truely no one here will probaly ever be effected by this decision (but if you are affected then more power to you.)

Actually, that's the thing - I'm more irritated by this as a fan than I am as a player, and that's the way it affects me.

As a fan, this means I've gotta wait three months to find out who wins, just so that a few thousand more average joes will be inclined to watch the TV coverage.

#50 01-05-2008, 7:05 PM

True. I meant more the playing situation of the 9 people at the table.

#51 01-05-2008, 7:09 PM

Seems to me this is about nothing but the money, and NOT the money going to players.

Forget 'it's good for players' crapolla. It's media dollars, Vegas gaming industry dollars, ancillary provider dollars, sponsorship dollars, coaching dollars, staking dollars, promotional dollars - and NOTHING about poker. I guess you could even throw in the future of sportbook betting. You can almost bet that there will be (or may already be) efforts to put poker final table results on sportbooks worldwide.

At least for my thinking, this can be related to any event, personal or public, that ends in an anti-climatic status. I'm sure you can think of many examples, but the crux is like.... the 3 minute man. He pumps for 2min, 58 secs and the final 2 seconds is postponed, and given to someone else to finish. Buy your ticket for the Superbowl with the knowledge that it is only good for the first 58 minutes of play. The final two-minute warning will signal the end of play for 4 months.... and across the bigscreen on the field will flash ... 'to be continued....'

Daniel's early support of this surprises me, in a way. But you can also bet (maybe through a sportbook, hehe) that he hopes he will be 'training or coaching' one of the final tablers. When it is unlikely that 9 pros will make it to that magic table, what better way to get a piece of the big pie? This runs my reply full circle and we're back to - money - NOT poker.

#52 01-05-2008, 7:47 PM

The worst part in my opinion is that you've paid 10k to enter, everyone else gets paid but you within a couple weeks, and you've got to wait 117 days to get your money because you did better. Are they going to be adding interest to the prize money for those 117 days, 'cause that'd be a hefty sum of cash. I'm sure for that amount of money over 117 days you could be making 3-10% off it with hedge funds before you have to pay a lot of it in taxes. And it shouldn't take you 4 months to get sponsored unless you want to have more patches on your clothes than nascar drivers. There's going to be a lot of unusual and different play at the final table I imagine, as people are going to be looking for ways to exploit their opponents play after they've had months to analyze it, and in the meantime, people have worked with coaches for months to fix their leaks and to counterexploit the probable exploitation. I do think the players who were running especially well will lose a lot of momentum, the game's memory is going to be a bit stale and basically against different opponents with the intense study most of these people are going to be putting in it's going to be a radically different environment than they remember.

#53 01-05-2008, 7:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexeiVronsky

The worst part in my opinion is that you've paid 10k to enter, everyone else gets paid but you within a couple weeks, and you've got to wait 117 days to get your money because you did better.

That bit they've at least got right - according to the release, everyone will get paid 9th place money as soon as they get down to nine players, then the rest of the money will be paid out when they finish.

#54 01-05-2008, 7:56 PM

I like a gap idea (but not 4 months... waaay tooo long) because there will be additional coverage of the final table and it should bring more exposure to the game. It could like the Super Bowl coverage with a day of interviews of the final table players and other pieces leading up to the final table play. I think the gap should be less than 1 week though. 4 months is ridiculous.

#55 01-05-2008, 7:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexeiVronsky

The worst part in my opinion is that you've paid 10k to enter, everyone else gets paid but you within a couple weeks, and you've got to wait 117 days to get your money because you did better. Are they going to be adding interest to the prize money for those 117 days, 'cause that'd be a hefty sum of cash. I'm sure for that amount of money over 117 days you could be making 3-10% off it with hedge funds before you have to pay a lot of it in taxes. And it shouldn't take you 4 months to get sponsored unless you want to have more patches on your clothes than nascar drivers. There's going to be a lot of unusual and different play at the final table I imagine, as people are going to be looking for ways to exploit their opponents play after they've had months to analyze it, and in the meantime, people have worked with coaches for months to fix their leaks and to counterexploit the probable exploitation. I do think the players who were running especially well will lose a lot of momentum, the game's memory is going to be a bit stale and basically against different opponents with the intense study most of these people are going to be putting in it's going to be a radically different environment than they remember.

you're kidding right? Lose momentum?

#56 01-05-2008, 7:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

That bit they've at least got right - according to the release, everyone will get paid 9th place money as soon as they get down to nine players, then the rest of the money will be paid out when they finish.

Didn't see that part, so the 9th place finisher gains an advantage since he gets more sponsorship deals, even though he won't win any more at the tournament, but the other 8 players are still essentially losing some money from the prize pool as they have 117 less days to use it. The total sum of the sponsorships are likely to outweigh the difference, but that pretty much requires you to sell yourself to these companies to make your money back. I'm more of the school that if you earned your money you should get your money to use. Isn't that why they have those piles of cash, so you can take your cash and go? (even though most people ask for checks)

#57 01-05-2008, 8:21 PM

I think this could be good for poker.

First off, you have to realize that every sport evolves. They make rule changes, some major, some minor. Nothing should be set in stone for the rest of time, or the world and it's modern advances will pass it up. Look at what the WSOP ME was in 1971, and look at it today. It is the same thing? It's not even close. It will be radically different in 40 more years. Maybe this change won't work, and they will change it back. But they're trying something that might generate more interest.

Which leads to my next point, which is about poker itself. Yes, a major part of this decision is just about money and marketing and capitalization. But what all this exposure will also do is help legitimize the sport. Getting more viewers, and more people interested in the players who make the final table, can be a HUGE step towards making the general public accept poker, and hopefully, online poker, as a game with more skill involved then maybe they previously thought. I hear the arguments that this isn't the "true" test of the 2-week grind for the main event winner. And that sponsorships or coaching will "change" what the ME final table has been. But I think those changes will be minor compared to the possible great effects this can have on the industry as a whole. Plus I think the most skilled player will still have the best chance of winning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likminutz

But truely no one here will probaly ever be affected by this decision (but if you are affected then more power to you.)

This is where I completely disagree!!!

A rule change in any other sport doesn't affect me. But this one can lead to MORE amateurs watching and saying, hey I can play that game. It can lead to LEGALIZING online poker. It can lead to MORE donkeys coming to my casino or depositing on my poker site, which will lead to money in MY WALLET.

#58 01-05-2008, 8:36 PM

Great idea on two conditions

1. Every player at the final table must receive extensive coaching and must have scouted the players to the maximum that they can

2. Stack sizes of each player are multiplied by something like 10, although that alters entire structure of tourny, it would provide deep stacked final table poker.

Therefore everyone will be deep stacked and be playing at the best of their ability, thus improving the chance of the best player at the table winning

#59 01-05-2008, 8:41 PM

I still think this whole idea is absolutley frickin stupid.

#60 01-05-2008, 9:09 PM

If they are making this change, then they should make satellites to join.

The main event split into 9 or possibly 8 (runners up into a play off) events with a better level format.

Each winner gets a certain amount, with residue going to 'World Champion' final table fund.

Longer lasting 500 player satellites will give better players more time, so we could end up with a true world championship as against an equivilant turbo on stars.

I'm playing a smaller buy in event the same as Rob but in all honesty I wouldn't want to play the main event as it stands.

Plus the main event should be geared to suit the better players, it is the world championship after all.

#61 01-05-2008, 9:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

you're kidding right? Lose momentum?

I'm positive you've heard of tilt. It can last a few days and if its bad enough can be to someone's advantage, especially a pro vs amateur. Give me 117 days, and I will have a clear mind and plan.

How about the Main Event is just cancelled (there can still be a 10K hold'em buyin) but instead the main event is all the bracelet winners from that years WSOP. Dealer's choice from HORSE, and your chip stack can be multiplied by however many bracelets you won that year.

#62 01-05-2008, 10:33 PM

since we're on this topic, let's play the super bowl in july, too

#63 02-05-2008, 2:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likminutz

How about the Main Event is just cancelled (there can still be a 10K hold'em buyin) but instead the main event is all the bracelet winners from that years WSOP.

Isn't that kinda the idea of the Tournament of Champions?

#64 02-05-2008, 2:37 AM

When I first read about this today, I was outraged. Although reading through this thread there are some very good arguments on both sides of the coin.

One thing I disagree with is that this move is bad for the pros. I think that while an amateur could improve vastly in 4 months time, the pro is going to pick up so much more from watching the broadcasts that they will be way better prepared on November 9th. Make no mistake about it, the WSOP Players Advisory Council is all about making things better for the pros under the guise of it being good for all. They are going to make out the best out of this. I bet they are even hoping that people read about this, become so enraged that they don't play the ME, thus shrinking the field and making it a smaller field (better for the pros). Next stop is a $20K buy in to weed the field out even more.

I would be very surprised if any of the final 9 are able to obtain sponorships outside of the world of poker (PS, FT, etc.). While the pros hope that they will be decked out like NASCAR racers with Coke and McDonalds patches next to their FullTilt logos, I don't know that a 4 month break will make this a definite reality.

I think Rob was the one that brought up the fact that this is being announced 2 months before the start of the ME. That is the most appaling aspect of this whole announcement. The WSOP schedule came out in January. This should have been announced then or pushed off until 2009.

If this change does in fact stick, then the WSOP should definitely split into regionals like the NCAA basketball tournament. This way it would reduce travel for most players. You'd have a East Coast winner from Atlantic City, Southern Regional winner from New Orleans, Midwest winner from Harrah's Indiana, and a West Coast winner from Rincon and Las Vegas.

#65 02-05-2008, 2:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

Isn't that kinda the idea of the Tournament of Champions?

The TOC has never had that year's bracelet winners. They have had the WSOP Circuit winners plus the final table participants from the previous year.

#66 02-05-2008, 4:23 AM

Quote:

If this change does in fact stick, then the WSOP should definitely split into regionals like the NCAA basketball tournament. This way it would reduce travel for most players. You'd have a East Coast winner from Atlantic City, Southern Regional winner from New Orleans, Midwest winner from Harrah's Indiana, and a West Coast winner from Rincon and Las Vegas.

So it would be for Americans only?

#67 02-05-2008, 4:42 AM

Didn't the "Poker Boom" start with Moneymaker's win in 2003...followed by the cut back of online entries and a smaller field in 2007 than in 2006...and now they're trying to get MORE people into the game?

: what do u think of this?
it is good for the game	16	25.40%
it sucks	26	41.27%
i really dont care as im not going to play the main event	6	9.52%
bastard!!!!	15	23.81%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll


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