WHY ARE THERE NAMECALLERS?

NAMECALLERS - THINK ABOUT IT....

Last evening yet another losing player started calling the guy who busted him (not me this time) a "donkey". His statement "how could you call me with " was a statement that frequently betrays the utter stupidity, the oppressive need to sound "expert" to hide your loss and utter lack of knowledge of the game most name callers have. (The whiner put in a minimum raise UTG, the 55 guy called - the flop JJ guy goes all in 55 guy calls - the turn river note the JJ guy could have easily gotten busted with a Q or overpair)

I must say first I AM NO EXPERT but I am a student of the game and have come to know a few simple, obvious things :

1. 1. Don't slowplay jacks early, particularly online, particularly early
   2. Your table can't see your Jacks and Jacks are not a "lock hand"
   3. There are MANY opportunities to get your jacks busted from a variety of ways and its not just from others holding AA, KK,QQ either
   4. Only rookies play only the strength of their hand and expect everyone else to fold and LET them win a pot
   5. Whatever you do, whatever your skill level "putting someone on a hand" is a guess (decision based on incomplete information) sometimes you're wrong sometimes you're right. The higher your skill level and familiarity with your competition the more often you are right - making a wrong decision does not make you a donkey. It happens to every poker player every day regardless of skill level.

Now I am one to not believe that the printed words of a writer of poker books should be slavishly followed. I also think it's childish to ape the words you hear pro's say on TV ("TVpokerese"). I swear people seem to think it's cool to say something is "sick" and I've hear it used in so many situations I'm confused by what it is supposed to mean - but thats just me. I am one to test what I read and find out for myself the value or lack of value in what I read. I find it suspicious that a current winning, poker pro would write EVERYTHING HE KNOWS FOR GENERAL CONSUMPTION - I wouldn't. PLUS even if they did, your proper application of those writings is what matters. For example: Every artist is familiar with the same brush, paint and easel as Rembrandt, every basketball player is familiar with the same, court, ball, dribble and shot of Michael Jordan BUT almost no one else can use the same tools as they could no matter how much you read their "how I do it books". But having said that, this is one of the writing's most poker books agree on, I have found accurate so I'll relate them here. In "Super System 2" Doyle Brunson, in defense of being criticized for losing 580,000 with in the final event at Bellagio in 2003 and winning the championship with "trash pocket hands" in 1976 with : and 1977 with said this:

"Today's tournaments are structured to be a lot faster.... You've got to play almost every hand when you're anteing high" At the very least you've got to see the flop. It's not at all surprising I won the 1976 and the 1977 World Championship with trash hands"
"...... I'd rarely play those hands. There's little reason when the ante doesn't force you to play. A major exception is when I play a pot for the sole reason of trying to steal it Then it doesn't matter what I have. I mean I could be playing the hand without even looking at my hole cards. At such time, I'd be playing my money, my position and a particular player. My hand wouldn't matter. If I was forced to look at it because I got played with, I might find two Aces, A-K or trash.... I hadn't made a pair all day, and I'd had to stay alive by stealing some pots, but on this particular play (referring to 2003), my read was wrong.

This is a capacity good pros have most amateurs don't - TO PLAY WITH NOTHING FOR REASONS OTHER THAN YOUR HAND. In non-professional games, you are also more likely to find players in a pot who chase and hit where a pro would have folded streets earlier.

One key indicator whining players of this particular low level betray is that most times their "whining about getting caught" mentions only their hand versus the busting hand. There is often little mention about preceding play, players tendencies. their table image, how many are seated at the the table, level in the tournament, stack & table position, ante/blinds or any of those "unimportant, inconvenient contributing facts/factors" that contributed to the demise.

So the next time you call someone a "donkey" think first - are you showing how little YOU really know about the game? At least consider that if you find yourself in this position a LOT (whining in the losers lounge) maybe you need to learn something...
OK I gotta admit I get more than a little perturbed by people copying "TV Code words" - it's weak make up your own stuff or at least use the words per their definition - so sue me... LOL

JonHolt(Merlin333)

p.s. If I had a nickel for everytime Jacks busted me, I'd have more money than Bill Gates -
p.s. I know I didn't bleep the word d**key this time..... what can I say

Cliff notes of this novel: Don't call names.

Great post, I never say much at the table unless people chat to me. Usally a gg if I have had a good battle with some decent players.

Is funny though I got called for playing and winning with a J,4 of clubs by a guy in a freeroll game. Yup im a donkey he says and start telling me how I would never make money playing those cards.

Its amazing how many people are great card players in there own heads these days. I myself have only been playing a month, so and tend to get more frustrated with my own play than others who beat me.

The same holds true for those who berate "donkeys". They're probably not much better than the others, but as long as they think they're good they'll keep playing. Try not to let them know that they're actually not as good as they think they are .

here's a line I use quite often at the tables when under attack by a name caller.
Whiner: How the *&^% could you call me WITH THAT???? YOU (BLEEP) DONK!!!!!
Me: Oh, I'm sorry (screen name). Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure and consider it next time we are in a hand together.
Me: If your around that long.... : )

LOL just kills em, I can almost feel the anger and frustration.

Would like to see the 'professional' online namecallers do that at a live table - BIF, BAM, POW ...

Sure, there are 'standards' by which a lot of players play the game, but the bottom line is - they give you chips and a chair. They are yours to do with as you see fit. When the chips are gone, so is the chair.

Just poor human behavior I guess. These are the same people who call the boss an S.O.B. behind their backs but could never go face-to-face with them. I think there are also a lot times that this behavior is influenced by excessive alcohol, smoke, or other mind altering 'things'.

Keep in mind, they are still just words on an inanimate screen. They don't jump off the screen and attack. I just simply ignore the fools, as fools and their money are soon parted.

In my short time playing online poker, I have come across a good number of these name callers. The other night, I knocked someone out of a tournament when I called his all in bluff, and hit the river. He then started ranting and raving because I should not have called him when he went all in. After a few minutes of him whining he said something along the lines of "you are a terrible poker playe". I replied saying "I'm still in and you're not, so I'm doing something right". He left after that.

I think you just need to ignore these people. They obviously think they are the best and are upset about losing. Let them rant and rave, they're only wasting their time.

Hey,

Once I see some one starting to get abusive I mute them out. It upsets me and takes me off m game to be at a table with those kind of jerks.

Good luck,

angie

I sort of take the opposite view of everyone else on this, and say that 90% of the times the people who are getting called names have it coming. Not saying that it's right, just that it's usually accurate. For instance, if you, Coasterdude, called someone's all-in bluff and were BEHIND, then you probably deserved to be yelled at.

Not really, yelling at people is something that kids or ignorant people do, not something that civilised adults do.

also its a lot easier for the name callers to sit behind a screen and act the hardman, if you was sat in a brick and morter game with these players most of then would be to scared to say anything

Like remembering what we were told when we were young.
"If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all"

I have to admit, I was one of the players you are talking about - not the name calling, but the expert after the event "U called my raise with A9 when u knew I must have had u dominated with either my AK of a big pair"

Now, however, I have given up moaning. The reason ?

I don`t think anyone really cares!!!

What I do is look back at the hand and try to work out why they called. A lot of the time you can come up with a reason - I find it is rare that ppl call with zero unless they have a massive chip lead or they are out of chips.

There are a lot of reasons to bet or call. One blaring example is someone has a table image of playing junk out of position I'm more likely to call a bet from a player like that, than call a solid player.

A lot of pros say:

Only rookies play hand strength only...

Maybe you were called because the opposition assessed your play as weak, thought you were bluffing, had a million outs, late in the tourney you were short stacked and thought you were pushing etc.,etc. ,etc...

My question about a "situation where someone deserves to be called a name". What possible benefit is there to you, your game, that game or dealing with the situation more profitably in the future? If you want to improve, isn't it better to do things that improve your game?

Merlin333

The reason there are name callers at the tables are the same reasons there are idiots in the real world.This is a poker community we are involved in and it has many of the same aspects of a real community.

Just as there are murderers,rapist,and just plain assholes in real life,there are the same on the internet.If someone is a douchebag in real life they ar bound to take it to the tables.Even more so on the internet seeing as how you can't reach across the table and punch them in the throat(even though you may feel like doing so).

I usually deal with this by killing them with kindness,or just ignoring them.For example,if someone says to me "you shouldn't have even been in that hand" when I call their all in with my 10 10 and they flip up aces then I hit my set to win I find 3 good ways to deal with that.#1 I can ignore them(always a good choice).#2 I can say"thank you much for the advice,I will be sure to follow that next time."This will be sure to rattle them a little.Finally,#3.This is a good one to do if they are still in the game.Simply say "well,it was a coinflip,ya know?This will rattle them for sure.They will go on and on about how it was 80% for them to win and so on,then ignore them.Option 3 is my favorite to put someone on tilt.

Just my take on it is all.

yup that is what u get when u forget that u r also gamblin. stats and numbers dont match up to a gambler who feels instinct. u had a good hand and u won kudos to you

Merlin333 (http://www.cardschat.com/members/merlin333/) vbmenu_register("postmenu_719407", true);
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"Benefit" of namecalling ?
There are a lot of reasons to bet or call. One blaring example is someone has a table image of playing junk out of position I'm more likely to call a bet from a player like that, than call a solid player.

A lot of pros say:

Only rookies play hand strength only...

Maybe you were called because the opposition assessed your play as weak, thought you were bluffing, had a million outs, late in the tourney you were short stacked and thought you were pushing etc.,etc. ,etc...

My question about a "situation where someone deserves to be called a name". What possible benefit is there to you, your game, that game or dealing with the situation more profitably in the future? If you want to improve, isn't it better to do things that improve your game?

Merlin333
__________________
Never interrrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake" - Napolean Bonaparte'

YEP I TRY TO BE NICE NO MATTER HAT IS HAPPENING
GOOD LUCK MERLIN AND TAKE CARE
Dragon 00769 ON MOST POKER SITES (justchuck69 on RB)

Very good points. I recently registered for a limit single table sng which i mistakenly thought was a no limit game. I announced my frustration to the table and 2 of the players start with the trash talking, name calling and the like. This type of thing normally doesn't bother me, but it ticked me off in this case. I had previously intended to forfeit the game and leave to play in the game i meant to register for in the first place. Instead I decided to stick around and win. (took 1st) So in this case a few players decided to "tap the glass" and it bit them in the ass.

I do think some of you are comming across with a `I am a martyr, I never get frustrated` approach.

One or two have mentioned the pros, etc.

What about players like Phil Helmuth, Devilfish, etc. On a regular basis I see these guys calling other players about the way they play - especially when they get muffed on the river.

Even though I am a changed person I still now and again explode when I lose a crutial hand when someone in reality should not have been in the hand takes me out. It is worse when you see someone sitting playing poor poker but catching - it is very easy to say `over time they will lose` I am aware of this, but when u have been sitting for 3 hours, on the bubble, u have a hand that can only be beaten by a 2 outer, u make the bet `uncallable` but they do call and knock u out - u can see why ppl get annoyed, especially when the guy u r playing blatantly does not know why u r getting annoyed.

Anyway, end of my rant

GL all

there are three ways to play jj and they are all wrong

I think there are two separate issues mixed up here, and they're worth separating out.

1. Everybody becomes frustrated by poker, AFAIK, and I have never seen that fact disputed.
2. What is at issue here, as I understand it, is whether you should abuse people sitting at the table because you don't like their play.

Just because a couple of the most successful poker players in the world are ignorant, or (to be kind to them) have found that an aggressive "bully boy" image works well for them at the tables, does not IMO mean that all of us should decide that it's acceptable to be ignorant ourselves.

Personally I don't really see it as being a martyr, or me never being frustrated. My take on it is more about me behaving in a civilised and courteous manner towards other people.

I confess. I namecall 15% of the time. Usually I just ignore it and try to play my game. But the two instances that tick me off are:

1)The horrific beat - I'm talking the guy who raises UTG with 92o early in the tourney, gets reraised heavy by you in late position with KK, calls anyway, takes a potsized stab at the pot with nothing, you go all in and he calls off his stack only to hit runner runner 2's to take the pot. That happened to me last night. The minute he turned over the 92o I knew I lost. I always seem to lose to mindnumbingly horrible plays.

Now races are races. I understand that 20% of the time my higher pair will lose to a lower pair and 25% or more of the time Ace rag will beat my AK. Those instances someone had something but ran into a bigger hand but survived. It hurts but no problem. I can see a reason due to the strentgh of their hand, their position and their stack size. I just find it hard to contain myself after a total nonsensical play.

2)The second is the know it all and 9 times out of ten, I'm not even in the hand. This is my biggest pet peeve at the table and where I do my most namecalling.

You know the scenario. Someone limps UTG with Aces, gets called by 4 or 5 guys. One of the blinds flops 2 pair with a hand like 94o because they saw the flop for free or very cheap. When the 'Poker Genius' loses a significant amount of his stack, he calls the winner every name in the book. I always feel a strong urge to ridicule his play and show him everything he did wrong. God do I hate the 'Poker Genius's.

So basically I take my cue from the table. If the table's quiet, I'm quiet. If the table's fun, I laugh and talk. It's just those 2 instances, The horrific bad beat and the Poker Genius that get my blood boiling. But 85% of the time I have great poker etiquette

I gotta admit the poker "genius" gets me sometimes too. But the saving grace is that usually although they always know what everyone else should play, they are most frequently sitting behind the shortstack and on the verge of crashing the losers lounge.

They are usually susceptible to the "Nice play did you learn that at EPU ("Expert" <insert their name> Poker University) and "since you're so good maybe we should change this game to EH Expert <insert their name>Holdem, we'll just deal all the cards to you and you decide who plays what how."

Corny I know but "experts" are sensitive about their "knowledge" of the game


Merlin333

LOL, That's great!

I'm going to try it...

i recently played a freeroll, and generally if your being and idiot or typing in a different language than the rest of the table i just mute you, because you aren't worth the time or effort, i file you under "dead money" your too busy being an asshole to play correctly and i will take your money eventually. on this particular table he had his friends join, friends being the other all in idiots who got caught already will crap hands and got busted out, well this guys friends joined the table to "observe" and were going on and on swearing calling me names. guess what? you can't mute someone not sitting at the table. i pushed all in with KK and he plays A5 and catches an ace on the turn, first time i was actually happy to get busted out, screwed up my win/loss a little i was 9/14 until that tourny ITM.

I personally love the namecallers! They give me something to laugh at (when they are not talking to me) while my butt gets flat sitting online for 4-6 hours. They also distract me from chainsmoking, ( I am constantly scrolling back through the text), overeating, and blind rage when my boyfriend breaks my concentration (asking me if I need a cigarrette or if I want the last donut).
All jokes aside, if everyone went by the "good call rule" then we would not have the joy of busting an idiot who has more money than sense. The "experts" tend to berate others when they get beat. In all actuality, they make themselves targets,very easy to read, (for the wild card players...i.e. the Gus Hanson's of the world...that will play any 2 cards as long as the preflop price is right.
I can't tell you how many times I spotted an AK all-in, that I more than gladly called with my low PP... And got raked over the coals for doing so! I know a guy whose favorite hand was 57...And he would go all-in with it everytime! He won $10,000 on sportsbook just playing ring games. Just imagine how many times he got his butt chewed!
In any case, we all have to remember that everyone plays differently and us veteran online gamers have to set an example for the "newbies". Eventually they get tired of typing insults, as did I...hunting & pecking my way through a tirade that no one was paying attention to...and they give up.
My advice is to mute them or ignore them. Don't let them get you off your game as they are obviously already off theirs. And if you feel yourself going down the temptation path to badmouthville, just remember, the "donk" that busted YOU probably just started playing cards and the luck will run out! Follow him around and steal his ass for a few weeks, that will make you feel a hundred times better than cursing him out!

I personally use the philosophy that any 2 cards are good before the flop and before the bets. I also tell pottymouths that I can't see through the cards and I honestly thought my hand was the best going in..."How was I to know you were playing AA?" That's why it's called GAMBLING......

At Bodog you can change from the chat tab to the tournament info tab, so that you dont see any chat at all. The downside is that you can no longer respond to civilised people that comment "nh" or similar.

Heard that different when I was young..."if you dont have anything nice to say....come sit next to me"

Merlin-nice post. I like your technique (it's only your 2nd I've seen), and thanks for the tips. It was an enjoyable read, as are many on this site. Wow, what a difference in intellect between this and my fishing forum!

When I joined a couple of months ago, I couldn't fathom card chat being interesting (The other card chat sites I'm on pale in comparison), but I'm in now. Like many, I just wanted passwords. Good job to the gatekeepers. Anyway, Cardfetish (if you even see this)- I love the grittiness of your play elements description! The chain smoking, pig- out is a specialty of mine, too. Anyway, what kind of question is "Do you want the last donut?"? Don't we always?

As for the meanies- I usually say "Kindness is a sign of intelligence; I think we know who's next out." Then when they bust, I give them "gg?" Most get a good laugh at the table.

all these jokers that run their mouths online about what a bad call that was, and how could you play that etc. i realize this has been said in this post but it bears repeating. if these online "experts" did this crap in a brick and mortar casino, they would in some cases be asked to leave or at the very least get a time penalty. if they were especially unfortuante, the donkey that knocked them out of the tourney might knock them out in the parking lot. its the easiest thing in the world to be a badass sittin behind a computer, but it doesnt make it right, and it doesnt mean your any smarter for doing so. i can only hope that some of these internet "experts" will get clued in.

I am guilty of the occasional "Donk" comment, but it is very rarely when I get knocked out and always on a freeroll table with someone that is continually playing bad cards out of position and catching then bragging about his/her poker skillz.

If I am knocked out by one of these I try to add a little humor to my exit occasionally and will say something like "Come donkey we will find another game" or "Donkey its time to go find the princess" (these go through my head with Shrek's voice I dont know why but it makes me giggle)

What people have to realize is that some players (good or bad) are going to think that they are the best. And those are usually the ones doing the name calling so you can tell they will get flustered easly most times on a good hand if they THINK they are supposed to win.
Donkey's, suckouts and whatever else names I have seen and occasionally been called are a part of the game, use them as a learning tool I was once told so I do hehe

I dont care if it benefits me, you or the pope if u piss me off you getting called a donk with some explicit words chucked in for good measure. I think i need anger management tbh, I just cant help but get wound up with people calling with "BS" hands and then knocking my KK out of high heaven, theres no point to it i know but at the time i dont give a......
Even if i win the hand and the other person shows some 72 or wuteva thats plenty to get me riled up. Its probably why i been on such a loosing streak lately coz i chat so much BS!!

But always i include a valid point and thats where people come unstuck, if you gonna rant least have a valid point and keep it real.

I understand what you're saying, BUT, I wonder if Phil might be on his 12th or 13 maybe even 14th bracelet, if not for that one guy who called his all in simply to see Phil go ballistic?

I believe there are reasons to make "friends" at the table. While maybe against the "rules" of poker, people do make soft plays, and sometimes they do this to people that they like. Take WSOP horse tourney, Scotty was upset with DeMichelle, and dumped chips off to Eric. He did this because he "liked" Eric and didn't want to see this cocky kid win the tourney. While maybe unethical, nobody is going to give chips back that they've won.

By the same token, I at times get upset, NORMALLY it's after I make some donk move, and I believe when I do, I often upset others at the table who simply want to take the "loudmouth" out. I know I love it when someone is talking trash at the table and I get the claim of taking out the table loudmouth....

I go both ways on this, though I never call anyone a name. The main reason is that before they beat me with junk: I wanted them to call. In a 1.50 cent tourny yesterday on ft, I play tight for the first 45 minutes and am down to 900 chips utg with JJ. I raise 3x (225) and get two callers. J,6,8 rainbow is the flop. I go all-in and get two callers, the other jack and a 9-10. Guess the river. I'm out and I wanted the two callers. Was he a donk I thought so, but I just typed gg and gl everyone. On the other hand being called a donk usually means I just won a big pot, so call me all the names you want. I know Im not calling two all ins with a gut shot straight though the donk. lol

You're right.
I've noticed that men (a little more often women) use to be great experts of every kind of sport (my husband is an example, sigh...), even if they don't play all of them.
THE is among them. You watch some tournaments on TV and you're an expert. It's a sad thing. And when you start losing, because you're not a good player, you hide behind rules and technique. But they only whine at their "donkeyness" (I don't know if this word exists in English, but I didn't know how to render it... ).
In Italy we say: "La mamma degli ignoranti e' sempre incinta", that can be translated: "The mother of the ignorants is always pregnant".
Arian