When The Dealer Screws Up

I was playing in a tournament one day and just 2 players were involved in a pot, and a short stack was all in against another guy.
The dealer did not burn a card between the turn and river and the short stack won the pot and the dealer gave him the chips.
Neither player noticed that he had not burnt a card but one of the other players pointed it out. The dealer confirmed it and changed the river card, which changed who had the best hand, and the dealer took the chips back off the short stack and gave them to the bigger stack.
The short stack guy was really pissed.
Should the pot not have stayed as it was as the dealer had begun shuffling his cards for the next hand and he had already given the chips back to the short stack guy. There must be a limit to when you can go back and change a hand if a mistake is made.

all hands should be burned,
dealer sacked and a black eye if i was the small blind lol

If I was the shortstack in this hand I would certainly have called the TD for a ruling on this. My understanding is that once the pot is awarded and the cards gathered for the next deal (obv as he was shuffling for the next deal) then there can no longer be a dispute.

We had this situation on the final table of a tourney a few weeks back, the dealer mis-called a hand and awarded the pot to the wrong person. Once the next hand started the players started to question it, the TD was called and said that the pot was awarded, too late.

If any of the two players cards touched the muck, I think the hand should have been valid even theough there was no burn. If no cards touched the muck, I still think the hand should have stood, as it was too late, chips were already awarded, but I don't know, it just seems fair.

When in doubt, call the floor manager / tournament director for a ruling. Obviously if you aren't in the hand, just keep quiet.

That's the one thing I hate about our local home games. People that are not involved in the hand calling out the possabilities on the board. And sometimes the people involved havn't noticed that possability. Really torks me off, especially when I am in the hand.

i concur. thats been my experience in tourneys as well

^ this. Once the pot's been awarded and the shuffle for the next hand has begun there's really not a lot you can do, but by all means pause and call the TD over.

I'm not sure I understand how this hand wound up though - someone pointed out that card didn't get burned so the dealer went back and fixed it, which resulted in the pot being awarded to the other player... but he'd already started shuffling for the next hand?!? That is definitely not right and the TD ought to be called.

^ definitely not this. Dealers are human, they make mistakes from time to time. I'm one, and I know I do. Not very often, because I'm awesome, but it happens.

If you notice a mistake happening, say something - even if you're not in the hand.

^ also not this, I think.

TDA Rule 29 says:

29. Killing Winning Hand
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the
winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands
if it appears that an error is about to be made.

This means that even if the winning hand touches the muck, it's not dead as long as it was tabled and if it's possible to correct the error the dealer can do so. Note also that the rule encourages players to point out dealer errors in this regard.

I don't know if we've got enough information on this hand to categorically say who was right or what should have happened, but the basic principles don't change: if something wierd happens, call the tournament director over before the next hand commences.

Its not your place to police the table. By pointing out this mistake, one of the two players is going to be upset. If they haven't noticed then they wont think twice about it.

Wow, If I had been that short stack I would have made loud angry noises all the way to the top of the chain of command. should not have been redone.

That's true, it's not your place to police the table. For the most part that's the dealer's job and they're plenty capable of doing it themselves.

But I'm a dealer, and I'm telling you now: absolutely say something if you see a major error (like a pot being awarded to the wrong person, or the wrong number of cards being dealt or something) being made or about to be made. You can see above, the TDA rules encourage you to do the so if there's a cock-up of this magnitude about to be made.

If you're right, none of the players in the hand have any grounds to be upset.

In my experience, involving yourself in an argument, in which you have no formal role, is the quickest way to get your car scratched!!

Hence, if it dosen't effect me, and no one's life is at stake, I will stay will stay out of it.

It IS my place to be involved in anything that happens on a live table that I have MY money on - ring or tourney.

I've played live since '69 and have never seen anyone (iirc) faulted for commenting on a hand outcome or a table action error. OTOH, I have seen people faulted for noticing an error and NOT saying something in a timely manner.

In this case as just one example, I could have been the next short-stack and NOT saying anything about the missing burn card could have meant the difference between shorty being eliminated or stacked, making me the shorty due to an error. I have EVERY right to say or make comments about any of the table action whether I'm in the hand or not.

I don't think this post was about continuing an argument 'after' the fact, it was about what and who has a say in hand and dealing/card progression. If 'anyone' at the table had called out the missing burn card, the error would never have happened and shorty would have been out, providing of course that the burn card correction would have given him a losing hand.

*shrugs*

Your call, I guess you're not obliged to point it out.

Put yourself in the other player's shoes though - the dealer makes a mistake and awards a pot that should've been yours to another player. You don't notice but someone else that folded preflop does. Are you really gonna bite their head off if they point out the mistake?

Well I'm not obviously.. I going to be over the moon... but the guy who thought he had won the pot (especially if its a large one) may be very upset. When emotions run high, some people do some very odd things.

I'm not quite sure if there's a 'limit' to when the dealer can go back & deal the cards correctly but I do know that if this was you in the hand, then you should ALWAYS get the floor manager &/or tournament director there asap.

Being you were playin' tournament style & weren't in the hand & every person that goes out is a benefit to you, I wouldn't say anything about it. Let them figure it out, if the ss goes out good, if he stays, he's still a ss & you have a chance to take his chips in future hands.

Meh, that's what casino security's for - if he is indeed that big a douchebag. The pot was never his to begin with, so he's really got no reason to get upset.

I play regular at commerce casino in LA, and there is allways everytime i go there some sort of crap with a dealer, it is not there fault but most of the time a floor man is called over and what ever happened is talked through usually to the satisfication to both parties, i have never came across something like that but most of the time when both hands hit the muck the hand is over no matter what happens. When playing live allways hold on to your cards until the very last second when the dealer asks for them don't through them in the middle, just turn them over and hold on to them until you are satisfied you have won or lost.

I would point out a dealer mistake in a heartbeat! The dealers job is to protect the integrity of the game and deal fair, if he does something wrong, or a pot is going towards someone who is not the rightful owner of it, well that is not a fair game.

You think thats bad? I was at a cash table where the dealer made a mess of a pot, there was a 4 way all in all of different amounts and the dealer totally messed up the side pots. Play was stopped for about 30 min I just got up and found another table cuz tempers were running really high, poor dealer looked like she was about to cry.

Well, I have to side with Oz on this one based on our old commonly accepted friend, Robert's Rules of Poker v10: 3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone at the table (assuming they aren't intentionally trying to cheat) should be looking to keep the game honest and fair. Any person that sees an error and intentionally fails to bring it to the tables' attention is no better than someone actually sitting at the table purposely cheating.


In regards to the OP, Robert's Rules lists a rule directly on point:

6. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard by any player, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.

As such, the fact he didn't burn a card between the turn and river became irrelevant the moment once action proceeded.

Lol I have seen this before when a dealer completely messes up the side pots. Once when I was behind another dealer waiting to come in, there was a multiway allin and when the hand was over a player only eligible for the main pot had the best hand and the dealer took the side pot, massed it into the main pot and started to push it to that player. The player that was supposed to win the side pot was like, "WTF!". The dealer just took some of the now one big pot and split it to the side and gave it to that player. I was behind and I can't say a word, I couldn't believe that mess!

If the error is correctable, I think it is reasonable here to try and correct it. That is, if the player who won the pot without the burns hasn't started stacking the chips from the pot yet, I think the error should be repaired. If he has started stacking those chips, the hand is over, because the error would become impossible to correct.

This is a terribly embarrassing situation (or should be) for the poor dealer as well.

And players have an obligation to protect the game from human error.

Honestly i think the dealer makes a mistake every time i lose a hand lol. But honestly i think this is a ggod question, there should be some reparations when the game is altered especially due to human error. The game has enough luck factor as it is, dont need extra second chances.

I understand the sentiment but two comments.

First of all..I agree with OZ (I am a dealer as well), you should point out a major error if you see one.

Secondly...especially if this is late in the tourny... the elimination of a player vs a shorter player doubling up most definitely affects you.

I do agree that players should help out.

Its just that my experience in pretty much all aspects of life (life in the UK) is that there are some complete nutters out there and getting involved or doing the right thing causes problems a high enough percentage of the time for my 'default setting' to be to stay out of things.

Its a terrible attitude to have, but I have come to this conclusion after years of doing the right / moral thing and seeing it completely blow up in my face.

If I started to write down the incidents I have witnessed or been involved in, I think there is enough material for a book.

I haven't always thought this way!!!

Jack Daniels- There was no more action as they were in a allin situation before the river.

However if the dealer DID indeed start to shuffle the cards for the next hand then its a mute point. Also dealers if you notice when they are done dealing will remove the burn card and place it on top of the remaining cards (or they should) and then they kill the losing hands and place them on top of the burn card, this is to insure that if a problem is found they can get the players cards back and still have the deck in its normal order.

now I had a similar situation happen to me at Mountaineer I was playing 1-2 NL and I had Aces and the board was A 3 K 9 4 the pot was at around $35 and the other player bet $40 I called and flipped my Trips he looked at his cards looked at the board and said nice hand and turned his cards face up and said I missed my straight dealer mucked all the cards awarded me the pot and placed those cards in the shuffle machine, then another player said wait you had 2 5 right and a few others said yea then you did have the straight. Now I did not see his cards but the players at the other end said he did indeed have 2 5. So they called over a floor person we told him what happened and they said that they would go back and look at the security tape but the other player said to me that if we just split it he would do that once we determined what was in the pot he said just give me $55 and call it even so I did.

You can't stop reading after two sentences, you need to read the whole rule: "If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded."

if your awarded a pot you dont have to give it up may be considered unethicle but its yours

Your first point is something I've never come across. Once a hand is mucked it's mucked and I've never been told I need to keep them in any kind of order that would allow the players to have their cards back in the event of a dispute.

You keep the burn cards separate (typically with the pot) until the end of the hand to verify that they are indeed all there, but once the hand's over you muck the lot into one pile and shuffle the next hand - there's no order or anything to it. Plus the amount of time between when you bring the deck together and when you start shuffling the next hand is under a second, so I'm really not sure what benefit it'd have anyway. Be interested to hear where that one came from.

And on the second point, that's just weird. He turned his cards up, you didn't look at them, and then chose to believe it when someone else said he had a straight? No offence, but if I had to pick the most likely scenario there I'd say he had 4-2 or something, the other player misread his exposed hand and then your villain decided to go along with it when the comment was made to see if he could get any money back. Or the other players were his friends. Either way, I'd say you got rolled there.

Anyone who's hanging onto 5-2, gets to the river on that board and then bets knows whether they've got a straight or not.

I personally would give him 10 bucks back maybe. Once he's mucked his hand, he has no rights to claim that he has won it afterwards, even if everyone saw it. You're not obligated in any way or form to give him any money back. If you chose to, great, but his cards were dead once he threw them away.

it was not only 2 players even the dealer remembers him having 2-5 and they had told me that since he did indeed flip his cards up he should have been awarded the pot the dealer had made a mistake , so what was going to happen they were going to have to stop the table and goto the video and see what happened and this they said could take 1/2 hour or so and if he did indeed would have to give him everything so 4 or 5 people saw he had the straight and I figured if he settles for half thats fine by me.

As for the dealer and the cards mucking them in order they do this at mountaineer they stack the mucked hands in order and all hands must be mucked except the winning hand before the pot can be rewarded. So if say dealer mucks a players card that had thrown them face up and he would have won then they can go to the top 2 cards on the muck pile and see he did indeed win and the dealer made an error.

That I will agree. you're not supposed to talk about the hand while it's going on, ESPECIALLY if you're not even involved. Definitely a no-no and definitely should be dealt with.