What are solid numbers for a TAG and NIT?

I would like to plug my leaks as a NIT/TAG but I am not sure what numbers I should be around to maximize profits for the following statistics.

3Bet PF
Total AFq
Fold to F CBet
W$SD

I play a 9/6 to a 12/8 depending on the table so what numbers do you think I should shoot for?

If it matters I play 25NL

For a TAG style 12/10 is a good place to start.

Concentrate on playing well or certain cards and your stats will automatically converge. 12/10 means you raise the top 10% of hands, so do that. To figure out what they are try using a hand chart, I think Hold'em Manager has something like that though I could be wrong.

You want to be aggressive post and pre-flop and with a tight opening range you can c-bet around 85% of the time effectively.

Thanks Chip I used to be a 10/8 but found it more profitable to limp with pocket pairs and such. Do you know what an effective range for 3Bet PF, total AFq, fold to F CBet and W$SD are?

Is 5% 3Bet PF reasonable? And a 60% W$SD reasonable?

I've had HEM for 3-4 weeks now so I'm still pretty new to the stats. I can't really answer some of the other questions well enough to feel confident I'm giving good advice but your W$SD number stuck out at me. I hope someone jumps in and corrects me of where it should be, but I think a W$SD percent of 60 is a bit low.

If I'm going to showdown and either paying for the river or pushing the river bet then I want a much higher percentage than 60. When the river drops I normally know if I have a good chance of taking the pot down or not and if I don't think I have a good chance I'm folding. Maybe that's too nit but my W$SD % is normally 80% +
When I put out a river bet or call one I want one of two things to happen:
1) I have the best hand and know I'm taking this pot down.
2) I want to tell the story that I have the best hand, make my opps believe I do, then take the pot down.

If I can't do one of the above, then I'm out of the hand. So in my opinion, you're W$SD % should be higher than 60.

Hm Stormraven I was actually not too concerned with my W$SD but now I am. Can anyone confirm that 60% means I am playing poorly?

BTW my 3Bet PF is 2.5% not 5% as written in the other post.

Probably the biggest mistake u could do is aim for a "good" number.
There are many ways to play winning poker and aiming for some magic number is not one of them.

If u want to plug some leaks check the postional tab(or post a screen shot) and make sure your VP$P an PFR are low in EP and rising until u reach the btn.
You be much better of going over your current stats and seeing if there good then decited your gonna play 16/12 and 3bet 4% because some one on a forum told u that was the key to winning poker.

3Bet PF If seen winning players have from 0 to 20%
Total AFq Winning player could have 20-80.
Fold to F CBet You could probably be winning even if had a ridic high FCBET but some thing around 40-55 seems a nice number
W$SD This is probably one of the few stats where u can say 55 to 65 is good since then your not geting bluffed to much but still not going with rags to showdown.



If u want some stats evaluated just post a screenie of your postional tab and some other stats, it should give u feedback that is million times better then just "17/12 is the way to winning poker!"

60% W$SD is on the high side of "good." Recommended is generally 50-60%, so I'd be careful not to push it any higher.

Less than 50% means you're probably seeing too many showdowns with weaker hands. More than 60% means you're probably folding a lot of winning hands, because you're only getting to SD with almost the absolute nuts.

It's a confusing stat for beginning stat trackers, who automatically think the highest number possible is ideal.

This. Minus all the typos.

Its like a golf swing. You want to play a game that is comfortable to you, not go out of your way to play someone else's game. Trying to get your stats to match a particular number might not be the best way to play. Try to plug your holes and play the strongest game you can comfortably and confidently.

DING DING DING! We have a winner

Okay, I hate to sound like such a newbie, but I have read far too many posts on this forum with poker "lingo" that just seems to go over my head. This is just another one of those posts. Is there someplace I can go to learn what TAG and LAG and NIT and W$SD and VP$P and CBet and PFR and EP means or what 9/6 or 16/12 or 12/10 is, etc. etc. etc.

I would really like to get as much out of all these posts as I can, but sometimes it is as if they are written in another language altogether.

Where can I go to learn what all these terms are and how they are used in context?

Thanks!

A couple of suggestions:

Hand Analysis Lingo & Other Poker Terms

TAG = Tight Aggressive, EP = Early Position, W$SD = Won Money at Showdown, etc.

10k post: micro stakes full ring guide [long]

Villain types and some stats, excellent discussion of playing full ring, but assumes some familiarity w HEM (Holdem Manager) / PT3 (PokerTracker 3) statistics, but worth trying to read.

^^^This is great advice. I don't recall you mentioning if you had HEM or PT3? With HEM there is a program called Leak Buster and you can display certain stats with it that shows your pos #'s and such. While you can't be too concerned about a "good" number it doesn't hurt to watch your #'s and aim for some goals while improving your game.

Posting screen shots of your #'s is a great idea. Like mentioned above, positional numbers should be higher in lp than ep. This is a mistake I've made in the past and am working on fixing.

Get a feel for where the recommended stats should be and then get a feel on how to get them there. For instance I had a very low cbet% and high fold to sb/bb steal which are opposite of what they should be at. So I worked on those and got a feel for when it was a good spot during my play to change them. I'm still working on it, it is getting better.

I should have mentioned before that my style is pretty aggressive post flop, I like to take pots down and not allow chases to the river so while I am losing out on some ev with this style, I am also taking down a lot of smaller/medium sized pots on a pretty consistent basis without a showdown. That is why my showdown #'s are high, I don't allow my opps to get there too often. This may be a leak but it's a newer style I'm trying and having some success with. I went through a period of bad beats and losing streaks and started practicing increasing my post flop aggression numbers and it's working nicely for me. I'm bluffing a lot more than I ever use to as well with success. (This is relative to the fact that I use to be too chicken to bluff, wasn't comfortable with it and I have significantly increased my cbets and firing off that 3rd bullet in spots I would never dream of doing before.)

So yes, while monitoring your numbers is good, do not work towards a specific number, rather a range. If you are successful with your numbers being in a certain range, although it may contradict what is recommended, then stay the course because it is working for you. Work on the ranges you know you are having problems with.

Over complicating the game is a big mistake in my opinion.Altho some looking into your game can help you with your weak points,and help you realize you have weak points,lol.Dont worry much about stats,worry more about improving your weakness.If you win more than you lose,you are doing good.Start from there Id guess.Do some homework.

wow appreciate all the feedback guys. I am interested in the stats for 2 reasons, one to see if I am playing well and two to see if my opponents are playing well.

I agree. When I first joined CC and heard all the talk about stats it was way over my head and my first thoughts were people were over complicating the game, if they just payed attention to their game and learned how to read their opps they would do better. LOL! I was so naive and didn't know it.

Using HEM or PT3 is a great tool to have in your poker arsenal. Learning stats has taught me about leaks in my game I didn't realize I had: it also shows me in real time the leaks my opps have while I am playing them. It is a fantastic tool that should be exploited imo.

ok i've heard 45% is a good w$sd%. this is due to the fact often you are given better than those odds to call a river bet. say there was $100 in the pot and the villian bet $60 that would mean we are getting 2.6 to 1 and only need to win ~38% of the time to be correct. if this hand was repeated 1000 time and were only had a w$sd% of 45% we would still be showing a huge profit.

Nice I never thought of it this way it makes a lot of sense thanks!

I absolutely agree that aiming for a certain number is a mistake. I am amazed though that nobody asked what game he is playing as the numbers depend on the game you are playing (6-max, 9-max, 10-max, HU,etc.).

I would also reccomend stating that this is holdem as there are other no limit games out there, so I can't post witty comments about it

Another thing is that your numbers should change depending on what sort of players you are playing against so it is almost impossible to say what your numbers should be if you are not playing against the same players over and over again. Even then, the other players might change styles meaning you have to adjust.

And to conclude. BLieve, you shouldn't be looking at the stats to determine how good players are since there are many ways players can be profitable. Rather look at what is the best way to play against a player with certain stats and how they are going to react to your stats/image.

Further edit:
I think you are over simplifying this. I don't think you should make the call based on playing a certain percentage or should you strive to attain a certain percentage. Again you are not taking into account your opponents/situation where in some hands you could be beat a large percentage of the times even if you had something close to the nuts. What I'm trying to say is that sure there might be better w$sd%, but it is going to be a very hard to make a profit if you forget the most important part - mainly looking at your relative hand strength as compared to your opponents and weighing in the odds.

^^^^ flint is right...

Optimum numbers will vary for small MTT, big field MTT, SNG, ring etc... there are no universal numbers for all formats, or player styles.

I started another thread on this a while ago that got quite detailed, Question to FP etc. re 'Nits Apology'