What should have been done, dealer mistakenly MUCKS my AK after i go all in

we're at the final table, out of 4 tables full of people, $55 dollar buy in, 10 people left, 6 places are paid. i am about 9/10 low in chips, and i come upon AK which i raise all in with, right after i say all in the dealer grabs my cards and throws them into the muck. everyone i just like wtf is going on, so he tries to retrieve them, and gives them back to me, but they aren't the same cards. so the floor comes over and after realizing that the dealer mucked the cards and not me, they say i get my all in money back, and that my hand is dead.

the good news is one of the guys who went all in after my hand was dead and action had moved on from me, said he had KK.

long story short, i made it 6th into the money over doubling my buy in. so all is good. but come on, how messed up is that. do you think the floor made the right call?

[i should probably add that the dealer was somewhat new and was probably tired, and that he was really sorry, except for the fact that when the floor came he did mention that my hand was unprotected.... which i see the argument for that if a flying card hits my cards but do you really have to goal tend your cards from the dealer??]

Its your own responsibility to protect your cards. TBH I'd regard you as lucky that you got your chips back.

In future protect your cards using a card protector or a chip,

really, you think it was mostly my fault? my hands were hovering around it, and i moved them out of the way because the dealer was going to grab something , and it happened so quick i just let him. i mean guarding my cards from the dealer picking them up never even crossed my mind, and i dont think any other players would think to protect their cards from that.

The rules are, you protect YOUR cards.

Here is it happening in the WSOP

Dealer Mucks All In Hand At WSOP

You got very, very lucky that they were willing to give you your chips back. It is YOUR responsibility to protect your cards. How hard is it to put a chip over them? Especially if you are going all in. I was going to post the link to the WSOP but Stu beat me to it.

Yes, though the sad truth is you just have to learn that them's the rules, and this stuff happens. Once you fully realize that, the first thing that comes to mind when a dealer reaches towards your cards at throwing your entire body upon them and yelling "GET AWAY FROM MY CARDS!!!"

Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating, but you will not move so the dealer can take something that might be your live hand.

RF

Lol I'm pretty sure the dealer has the grab the cards to put them in the middle for showdown right? Idk, dealers make mistakes just like everyone else.

u got lucky the floor ruled your all in bet didnt have to stand as a call just like what happened to estelle denis in the wsop. yes, not your fault but that's part of poker. sh!t happens.

I would tip the dealer for that! Saved you some.. haha.

You should have lost all your chips because it's hard to win an AI without cards (unless everyone else folds out of the kindness of their hearts).

Protect your cards.

Said many times, but so true. Card protection is solely your responsibility. If KK had whined you weren't getting your money back. Technically it's house rules, but I don't know of a house that wouldn't say "too bad" to the letter of the rules. This is why there are floors though, and why its good to make them like you. Sometimes judgement calls get made in the interest of fairness over letter of the law. Give the floor a hug, and slip a bill in his/her pocket ultra-discretely.

All been said above, always protect your hand.

The dealer did screw up (we're human, it happens) but I think the floor made the best ruling possible.

Unfortunately sitting to directly either to the left or right of the dealer has disadvantages. The only way to truly protect your hand from such disaster is placing a chip or protector on your cards. He/she is less inclined to snatch the cards from underneath you.

It was your fault. Put something on those cards. I can't believe the floor gave you such a favorable ruling. I have seen it happen where your cards are gone and your money has to stay in the pot

Ya not his fault at all..He could have heard fold in his head..or all in from a different table...You have to have your eyes on your cards at all times.

Rule of thumb If you sit left of the dealer keep you chips on the right side of your cards and keep a coin or chip on your cards .

I you sit right of dealer( imediately right) keep you chips on the left side of the dealer and keep a coin your keys or whatever on your cards.

Oz Is it harder to reach around chips to pick up cards?

If you are going 'all-in' you cannot leave a chip on your cards. That last chip goes into the pot, not on your cards.
Ergo... card protector is a MUST !!!

^^^^^ this.... EXACTLY !!!

Depends how big the stack is. If the player is all in then the chips will be forward and not next to the cards on the rail though.

FWIW I really do think the floor made the correct ruling here.

Yes, the player made a small mistake by not protecting their hand but I don't think there's any question that the biggest mistake was made by the dealer and thus out of the player's control. If they rule that the chips have to stay in the middle they're effectively eliminating the player since they've got no hand to show down. I'm pretty sure that's an unfair punishment for not protecting your cards in anyone's language.

Not once in probably thousands of all ins has a dealer instructed me to take the one chip protecting my cards off my cards and into the pot....and if he were to, then he would be aware that I was all in and wouldn't muck my hand.

Definitely you need to protect your cards. Also, its good to announce that you are raising, going all in etc so that it is heard and not just seen.

In poker language, the only one that counts, protecting your cards is the responsibility of the player and no on else.

Might be different in PA, but in Nevada it is common for the dealer to comment that a chip left on the cards must go into the pot. In friendlier situations, it 'might' be understood that the all-in includes the card protector chip, but all-in means 'all-in' ... not 'almost all-in' ...

Just curious though ... in "thousands of all-ins" you've never considered a card protector as a "must have" .. ?? ... Seems like a professional carpenter that goes to work without his personal hammer ....

Of course "All In" means every chip and unless other players suspect you of cheating, they usually trust you enough to know that your card protector chip will eventually go in the pot if you lose. I mean, that's just common poker courtesy.

I've played in S. Cal, Vegas, & A.C. and as long as you say "All In" and make a forward motion with your stack a few inches, that's usually kosher. In most cases, your chips are still in front of you. Once in a while you may hear another player complain and ask you to put your entire stack in the middle but that's happened to me only a hand full of times. (and it's usually frowned upon, especially if you're playing 7 or 8+ stacks deep) Of course, if you only have a few chips (or just one stack) then you throw it in.

When I was playing in S. Cali, the one casino actually had an "all in" button for every player. All that was needed was for you to throw the button in.

I'm kind of superstitious about card protectors. Every time I use one, I run so friggin' bad it's unbelievable. Then I'll try another one, same thing....lol....so I gave up on them after 4 or 5 tries (and buy ins).

Holy crap!! I haven't played l;ive in a casino in 10 years. But I'd think any dealer in his right mind - well, you not only pushed, but called a verbal 'all-in' should be fired on the spot. On the spot, if you had witnesses. TBH, guarding my cards would never have crossed my mind either. Not in a million years. Guess I am as naive as you, as most here seem to disagree. That sucks, sorry. I dfon't think you were lucky to get your chips back. They should have compensated you, IMHO. I'll get flak for this, but MHO.

That is no excuse. Are you supposed to assume a professional does something no drugged, tired drunk should be capable of and get away with it?!?? Whoever hired him/her should pay - at least something. In good faith.

The rules place the onus on the player to protect his cards to prevent this. This way when the dealer screws up, the casino has zero liablility becsause the player did not protect his cards. Therefore the player did not follow the rules and thus the casino does not pay out.

In a world where this was going to happen, there would not be a rule requiring the player to protect his cards at all times. This is why people like myself are trying to drum it into others that they MUST PROTECT THEIR CARDS AT ALL TIMES, because if you do not and a mistake is made, you are the one who will suffer.

No real 'flak' DB, just a comment that guarding your cards is a vital part of LIVE play. Online the site does that for you, except for mis-clicks or site crashes that fold your (winning) hand. We don't get compensated for that site error...

On behalf of the dealer and as a frequent live player, there are a lot of things going on that can influence live play. In live tourneys, there are a number of tables active at one time, all playing the same game. Voices from all the tables mingle and can cause confusion, drink waitress disruptions, player discussions, general casino/card room noise and music interferes, etc. The reasons are countless that events happen live that do not happen online, and sometimes vice-versa.

The 'dead hand' and 'mucked cards' were put in the rules for a reason ... it can and does happen so decisions are already in place to handle whatever known, regular problems occur.

This is the human element of live play that we deal with, just like the electrical/mechanical failure we all know happens online and no one gets compensated.

<edit> I think Stu and I are saying about the same thing here, he just has quicker fingers...

Okay, you protect your cards within reason. But when you verbally say 'all-in', you expect a dealer not to be incompetant enough to have his brain elsewhere if he has one. I mean, is it good for business to have the patrons guard each hand with their life? That cannot be enjoyable. I agree your cards should be fairly protected, and probably there are many 'iffy' cases. This does not sound like one.

It doesn't matter how the situation occurred.

This is not a discussion about how things would be handled diffreently if you ran a casino

Were the cards protected? yes / no

Is there a rule requiring players to protect their cards at all times? yes / no

When you go allin, put your hand on your cards.

Okay, point taken, rules are rules. But given the situation, I would not have thought in a million years that might happen. Lesson learned? A cruel, unfair lesson, IMHO - but guess a lesson nonetheless.

From Robert's Rules

This is the rule you are up against!

It does happen, and its a shame, but once it happens you haven't got a leg to stand on. The only thing you can do is to protect your cards and prevent the dealer mucking your hand.

Again, this is the reason I am drumming it into you, so that you protect your cards and never have this happen to you.

Thanks. And like I said, haven't played live (except for home games) in a casino for many years. And where I've played was strictly Atlantic City, where they probably have a higher quality of dealers. And it was stud only available. But still.... tricky biz, if I ever go back, I'll be forewarned.

Have you ever been in a card room with multiple tables being played? There's dozens or hundreds of conversations going on, people at all tables saying all-in, call, raise, and fold. It's not always possible to tell exactly what is being said, or even what table it's coming from.

Rules are there for a reason. This is why the "Each player is responsible for protecting their own cards" rule is employed. "Guard each hand with their life"? Seriously? How hard is it to keep your hand on your cards, or put something on top of them. It's simple, if your hand is on your cards, or you have a card protector, the dealer won't touch them. In all my years of playing live poker, I've never had a dealer try to scoop a hand that I didn't fold. I've seen it happen to other people, and I have no pity for them when they lose whatever they had invested. They should have read and understood the rules before sitting down. And yes, this rule will be clearly listed, usually on a large poster near the sign-up desk (and sometimes posted multiple times around the room) at every card room you go to.

Dealers are only human and they do make mistakes. This rule is designed to stop mistakes from happening. Is the punishment sometimes unfair? Yes. Is the rule sometimes bent to enforce the spirit of the law rather than the letter? Yes. Is it unfair to punish everyone else at the table because one player was unable to follow the rule (Either through delay from having to deliberate, or having someone not being awarded chips that were, by rule, theirs)? Yes. Is this a hard rule to follow or an unfair rule? No.

'Stud' kind of explains it all (in your case) and explains your thinking. Dealing stud is quite diff than Holdem. I learned to play live at stud tables in 1969. That was THE game of the day, along with 5draw. 5stud had just faded to 7stud being most popular.

Stud dealers will not normally touch a stud hand in progress unless the player places their up cards face down or at least pushes all their cards toward the dealer. All hands are live unless the player folds them. Can't ever recall a dealer reaching for anyone's 'hand in progress' cards. Also, there is no 'all-in' action in stud unless it is your last chips into a betting round.

Not that hard. Just been an education. Would not have thought it necessary. Simply that if I were in that situation, and had not happened to me before, would never have anticipated the possibility. Probably not at AC, but lesser venues, who knows. Hell, AC maybe. Certainly would not have ever given it a thought, come on now.

Very interesting. My experience was somewhere in the early-mid 90's. And poker was only legal in AC for a month or less.