What's YOUR Opinion?

I know you guys are mostly NL players, so I'll risk getting slammed-

I always hear NL players talking about how that game is so much tougher than limit, and is way more of an art-form. Yes, I believe you must "throw away the math" sometimes, as the next decision could mean your entire stack, but...

LHE isn't only a simple "science," dominated by strict math decisions, as I hear so often. To be a truly successful limit player, very subtle concepts must be mastered. Since LHE isn't about snapping stacks, but instead, about winning every single bet possible, knowing when to push the tiniest edges are essential.

"I hate limit, because it's impossible to protect my hand," I hear over-and-over.

That just simply isn't true! Because you can't just move all-in, you must find more subtle ways to protect your hand... this is where the "art" comes in winning limit play!

What do you think? Agree/Disagree? Opinions?

They're obviously different games, I wouldn't say either was 100% math or 100% art. Both are a mix and both require slightly different skill sets.

I think the problem that most people have with limit, especially low stakes limit, is that so many people call the bets or raises chasing to the river because the the bet sizes are limited. Obviously that is not the correct way to play but early in the game it is too easy for people to chase that ace to the river.

I've heard players say they play NLHE because it's easier than limit, not because it's harder. From what I've heard, when NLHE started being on TV, there got to be so many bad players who thought they could play and tried to play.

Personally though, I play NLHE simply because I think it's more fun. I needed to pick a game to get good at, and I chose NLHE. Some pick razz, stud, omaha, HORSE, even draw poker. I think I can make the most money from NLHE, so I play that. In the past I have considered trying to learn and get at least competent at limit poker. It's just a different game, even though there are so many similarities.

Also, the "impossible to push them off their hand" argument is bullshit, just as the argument that in NLHE "all the donks keep calling with their draws and hitting". Also from what I've heard though, there's crazy high variance in LHE.

But I think you'll find most cardschat members don't dislike LHE, and some even play it regularly (FP used to, but I think he moved to NLHE recently, not sure if he's doing NL exclusively or still does both). It's just a different game.

Limit hold'em is harder. You can't just get in 1-2 big pots and have that be your profit for the night. In limit, each decision is pretty much worth the same amount of money.

I get in more tough spots playing stud & limit hold'em than I do playing NL. Just in NL, its usually more important to get those few tough spots you're in right (since there's more $ riding on it).

They take different skills, and are very different games.

I think Limit games might suit a different style of player too. To tell the truth I almost expect a shift eventually. The mass multitabling types may eventually find that limit games mesh better with their personality. Some of them pretty much play limit at NL tables as I see it.

As to which is harder or more of an art... Meh. I just think they are different, but subtly really as they are built on almost the same exact platform.

Limit Omaha Hi/Lo vs NLHE now we are talking leagues different.

i like limit, many people play crap because the bets are small, those people will eventually get caught. if you play smart you will win. it is easier to get to know a persons style when play limit. with limit its easier to walk away from a hand when you think you are beat as well because you usually have less chips tied up in it

When playing ring games, I play Limit, usually $2/$4. The problem with these games is that too many people chase hands that they should never even play. That's why they are often called No Fold'em Hold'em games. But, these are the mistakes that make you money in the long run. In the long run, tight play will win, but in the short run the old lady playing any two cards can and will suck out on you. So, as a solid, tight player, you must learn to deal with frustration. Also, using tricky plays like a check raise and a reraise to protect your hand assumes that your opponents know what those plays mean and know enough to fold their draws. Some do, many don't. So, many times these plays go way over their heads. Similarly, pre-flop raises with big pairs are usually a waste of money in No Fold'em games. Pocket A's will hold-up about 30% of the time when there are 7-9 players seeing most flops. That being said, Limit is about getting as many bets in the pot as you can. So, tailor your play to the table at the time.

If you move up to $3/$6 Limit, there are generally slightly tighter players, even more so at $4/$8 Limit.

But, since you make money when your opponents make mistakes, more mistakes are made at $2/$4 Limit than in any other game. So, the really easy money, in the LONG RUN, is at $2/$4 Limit. You just have to play solid, tight poker, deal with the suck outs, and show them the nuts.

very interesting comments on both games, I like to play max.6 table in both games. I do equally bad at both.

Both games are pretty much completely different.

I dont really need to explain why, its pretty obvious....

I love NL way better, limit is mad slow, especially if you were to play it live at the casino. I look around at the casino to see what kinds of players are playing limit, and which are on NL. Has about 10 tables total, probably 6-7 NL tables and 2-3 limit..... the average age of the NL tables is probably 30~

The limit tables? avg age is 50+ lol, if you like playing with a table of old people im sure its awesome. But overall NL is just way more action, big big big pots once the table has like 300+ bb stacks, its where the money is at basically. I play to make money.

The problem I have with limit is when your in a tournament and you have a idiot playing. Your force to play with him for way to long until he spews all his chips. In no limit, he would be long gone.

I learned alot by reading this post. People always do say N/L holdem is harder. But I Geuss It would take alittle more skill near the end.

No limit is the only true game. You must make a man make a decision for all of his chips. Read some Super System.

Personally I think Limit games are a way to separate the men from the boys.You have to actually think about the quality of your starting hands,and is that a hand that time after time is going to reap you benefits in the long run.It will also help your no-limit game a great deal if you continually win in limit.

lol, define all. If I lose a hand for all my chips, I just re-buy. People ss for 20 big blinds at NLHE. In limit a hand can have 4+4+8+8=24 big blinds go in the middle from each stack, so sometimes the combined limit decisions are for more chips than the NLHE decision.

Oh, and Super System claims ESP is a valuable skill, so I'm not going to take stuff in that book as the gospel as some seem to do.

And they can draw cheap. I just like to bet those draws out when I have a strong hand.

nl is definitely a harder game to play. in limit i have no fear of being bluffed out of hand or getting overbet. when it comes down to it, in no limit you have way more thinking to do. plus in limit there are people who call with anything just to see the flop.

Have you played in NL low-stakes games? Freerolls? I'm sure at the upper-limit LHE games people are not calling with anything but there are bad players at lower stakes of any game. Of course that should be good for you because you will profit that way.

I learned to play poker (I am one of the "old" people), playing only limit or table stakes. The games were mostly 7stud and 5 stud, hold em was called up and down the river and was not liked by most players. I played no-limit hold em at the 5-10 table $500 for a seat table in Vegas for the first time in 1976, and liked the game immediately. Back home I found a new way of looking at forcing you opponet to act, aggression pays at no-limit not so much at limit especially to a calling machine. I found that I like these calling machines because unless they were on a roll (then stay away) they lost way more than they won; I mean way more. These people that won $500 on monday and maybe $200 of it was yours, would give it back double on wednesday. I like the idiots that go all in with 2-7, occasionally i end up swearing at them as i type nh, but in cash games these boys pay the rent. I like limit games for cash in old-fashioned poker games. On the internet limit drives me nuts, raise, raise, raise; damn they all can't have something. Then you get three of the raisers checking on the turn.

I have played some limit but mostly nl sng's I am going to start playing some nl fr. My thoughts are it could be a good way to start multi tabeling. Just for the experance.

Playing limit is totally different from NL cause your right you cant protect your hand.. but Limit thats some tuff Biz there. The one good thing about it is that you can just limp in and hope to catch, but still can't be a calling station and play every hand. Limit and NL is a huge difference but I love to play both keeps my skills on edge.

Also playing NL you are always risking losing a lot more than in Limit so depending on skill and bankroll you need to make personal choice on what to do.

CG

I think it's more difficult to be a really good limit player than no limit. You can make a lot more mistakes in no limit, and make up for them with big pots when you have the nuts. In limit, every decision is important.

Conversely, I think it's quite easy to become a marginally winning player in limit, simply by playing only strong hands, and playing them fast. The learning curve for getting progressively better is much steeper with limit, in my opinion. That probably accounts for a lot of poker newcomers' infatuation with no limit.

i agree. very little talent in it. just play tight at the beginning of tournaments. bluff to players only if you would be sure to scare them away. when less people remained and blinds raised enough, then real game starts, it turns into no limit

limit poker sucks fullstop..
most the players that play limit poker will call u no matter what they have, rendering ur aa and kk useless when u got 2/3 players un willing to fold 2nd and 3rd pair, and more often than not spiking a bs river trips or 2 pair

When i play cash tables i play limit. I like knowing that every pot is going to have something worthwhile in it.Also much less idiotic grandstanding in limit.

You may have more chasers in a limit game,and alot of donkeys just betting with crap cards running(or trying) everyone out.Theres good n bad with both,so choose yr game.I prefer limit to build with myself,but i play small stakes in ring games.Im not ready to move up just yet.I like earning a hundred or so and withdrawing it.It helps havin xtra money thru the month.Everyone is different.It really depends on your goals and bankrolling too.

i like how you threw in doyles quote, i actually heard him say that on national TV.
now about your questions it's all preference, and everyone is going to defend thier favorite game, regardless of strategy or whatever, that's just how it is. and some are better at NL then L.
i feel in NL you have more control, it's easier to bluff, you can scare your opponent easier by firering the amo. and it's a litte quiker.
your right about limit, more controled subtle moves. and you better know what your doing.

Being unable to defend your hand in Limit is a draw-back. Once someone calls pre-flop and gets a piece of the flop, they are inevitably getting the pot odds to call at least one small bet to see the Turn card. However, many of these calling stations don't even know what pot odds are, let alone why they are important. And, as I noted in my previous response, they will suck out on you and you must learn to deal with it.

For example, I played some $2/$4 Limit yesterday afternoon. I previously said that pre-flop raises were generally a waste of money. The one exception is if you are first in the pot. I was UTG with pocket K's, so I raised to $4, because I knew what was likely to happen..some donkey with and Ace rag was going to call and hit an Ace on the flop. Sure enough, the old timer on the button called me with A 7 off-suit and hit his A on the flop to win the hand. Obviously, he made a horrible call. I could have had anything from AJ suited on up, so he could have been easily dominated. But, he probably doesn't even know what being dominated is. He was a net looser during the session, so in the long run his horrible calls caught up with him. Of course, I was not always the beneficiary of his bad play. And, that's the FRUSTRATING part!!!

The hard truth of the matter is that most people have no idea how to play tough, winning limit!

"Raising preflop is a waste of time" is a ridiculous statement, and just proves that players don't do much homework, as they try to learn the game. Look up the word EXPECTATION!

"Can't protect my hand" is another line I love. Protecting your hand is limit is 100% possible... just got to know how. Yep, another important, subtle strategy that many players have no idea how to put into limit play.

"There's very little talent in limit" is just laughable, but proves the point that new players rarely put in the study time (which is why BROKE is a word often used when they describe their poker life).

Something that wasn't mentioned much, if at all, is the MENTAL TOUGHNESS needed to be a long term limit winner. It's a grind, which is why I love it soo much (knowing my opponents hate it). I love the emotional control needed in limit.

Dayne G.: I agree with your statements when it comes to higher level Limit games...maybe beginning at $4/$8 Limit and going all the way up. Perhaps I should have clarified my statements more precisely.

It's been my experience that in $2/$4 and $3/$6 Limit games, there are too many players, playing too many hands, and going to far with them. Usually 7-9 players are eeing the flop, playing all kinds of rags, and a raise won't drive them out. When that many people stick around, somebody inevitably hits something to beat big pocket pairs that would usually hold up in other Hold'em games with only 2-3 players seeing the flop...thus, my statement that pre-flop raises with big pocket pairs is often a waste of money. Yes, I know about Expectation and with 7-9 people seeing the flop, I expect big pocket pairs in low dollar Limit games to hold up slightly less than 30% of the time. Over the long run, raising pre-flop may pay-off, if you can learn to deal with the frustration of suck out and people beating you with rags in the short-run. I will admit that my frustration level is not as high as it should be under these circumstances.

In my experience, post-flop is entirely another story. Betting, raising, and reraising is very necessary to protect your hand. Again, that doesn't prevent someone from from making statistically bad calls and hitting their gut-shot on the River in the face of a bet and raise. But, in low dollar Limit games, poor players attempt to do it a lot and sometimes succeed. But, post-slop, it's easier to drive them out with a raise or make them pay very dearly to hit their draw. Against these calling stations, you can make lots of extra bets post-flop, because a check-raise and pot odds are not in their vocabulary.

In short, I think one must play differently at low dollar Limit games vs higher dollar Limit games and within low dollar Limit games, pre and post flop play. While statistically the cards are the same, the players are not, so I vary my play accordingly.

limit play for the beginner is best to start a ongoing bankroll. no limit play should be considered dangerous for the beginner my advise stick to limit until you have a considerable bankroll to work with

The art of limit... I definately need to read more into it, however I think low limit play is like a free roll and I honestly do ot want to put the money into a high limit game untill I feel confident enough with a strategy, to me it just seems like I always want to call almost anyhting cuz the whole table is in and I am getting odds to call... terrible I know, but I do not see how min raising after and preflop can protect ahand.. any good books you might suggest?

The best book on Low stakes Limit Hold'em that I have found is Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth "Small Stakes Hold'em."

This post is right on. In NL you can play way less hands and be in great position. Thats just not going to happen in limit games. Limit and 7 stud are much more skilled games in my opinion.

no limit is my favorite game but limit does have its draws like the being able to chase a hand down without having to go allin. hehe , but nolimit is the main game being played right now cant even find a good five card draw game anymore