What legal course do I have?

party poker has cancelled its Monster tournament structure.

The structure is

100k Weekly Tournament, 25% make it into the Monthly 8000 people

$1 million Monthly Tournament, 12.5% make it into the Final 8000 people

Final tournament, current prize pool $14 million 8000 people


Cut from their site


Cash values for each freeroll (not taking into account any future value):

Grand final: ( $14,405,786 Prize Pool / 8,000 players ) = $1,800.72 per player

Monthly: ( $1,000,000 Prize Pool / 8,000 players ) = $125.00 per player

Weekly: ( $100,000 Prize Pool / 8,000 players ) = $12.50 per player

Probability of advancing from one tournament to another:

Weekly to Monthly = ( 2,000 players advancing / 8,000 players advancing ) = 1 out of 4

Monthly to Grand Final = ( 1,000 players advancing / 8,000 players advancing ) = 1 out of 8


Future values for each freeroll:

• Value of a Monthly freeroll to a player with a Weekly freeroll
  
  ( 1 out of 4 ) * $125 = $31.25
  
  Value of a Grand Final entry to a player with a Weekly freeroll
  
  ( 1 out of 4 ) * ( 1 out of 8 ) * $1,800.72 = $ 56.27
  
  Value of a Grand Final entry to a player with a Monthly freeroll
  
  ( 1 out of 8 ) * $1,800.72 = $225.09

Total value for each unused freeroll:

Weekly: $12.50 + $31.25 + $56.27 = $100.02

Monthly: $125+$$225.09 = $350.09

Grand Final: = $1,800.72


8000 * (100+350) = 3.6 million
1000 * $1800 = 1.8 million

Total Monster Prize pool = $14,000,000

Net KEPT by PP = $8.6million

As a ticket holder for the Grand Final, I expected the payout to be, whatever money is leftover after weekly and monthly disubrsement / 1000 players , which in this case would have been $10,400

dividing the total amount by 8000 is just asanine as there are only 1000 people who have an entry, and at most 2000 if you count those who might win it this month. That leaves a 6000 player vacuum, which would take millions of dollars in entries/attempts in order to fill, thust altering the value.

I may have to pursue this legally if they don't rectify it. $8600 or more is a major short. Though if they shorted me, they shorted everyone in their calcuations.

None, sorry

robwhufc said:

None, sorry

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Thank you VERY much for your detailed and in depth explanation. I'm glad you are an expert on these matters and can answer with a single sentence, but for those of us who DONT already know the answer, would you care to elaborate?

gambling debts aren't recoverable by law - that succinct enough for you?

robwhufc said:

Gambling debts aren't recoverable by law - that succinct enough for you?

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I guess that helps a little more than "none, sorry".

I will continue my research from there, thank you.

Maybe this might help. In Party`s terms and conditions of use, which you have to agree to when you open your account, it says:

"The Company reserves the right to suspend, modify, remove and/or add any Game in its sole discretion with immediate effect and without notice and the Company will not be liable for any such action."

Edit: Another thought. In general terms, Rob would be right that gambling takes place outside the law. However, as I understand it (and I`m not a lawyer, so don`t necessarily take me as an authority) it is arguable under UK law that poker is not gambling, since it is a game of skill. I believe that there is a case under way currently around this issue, not yet resolved, last I heard.

Also, Party is registered on the UK Stock Exchange and licensed in the British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar - therefore bound by UK law. That being the case, I suggest your contract with them would be enforceable in a UK court. Sadly, because the section I have quoted above is included in that contract, your case is unwinnable.

Just to be clear, if I go to a casino, and win 200,000 in chips, according to "Gambling debts aren't recoverable by law" they can just tell me to f off ?

Egon Towst said:

Maybe this might help. In Party`s terms and conditions of use, which you have to agree to when you open your account, it says:

"The Company reserves the right to suspend, modify, remove and/or add any Game in its sole discretion with immediate effect and without notice and the Company will not be liable for any such action."

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I figured as much...

I guess the amounts they are paying out is just to save face.... as paying out 1/4 of the money and keeping 3/4 of the money is still rather profitable

OneMoreBust said:

Just to be clear, if I go to a casino, and win 200,000 in chips, according to "Gambling debts aren't recoverable by law" they can just tell me to f off ?

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Again, I`m not a lawyer, but yes, I believe so.

However, in the UK at least, you do have an appeal route. casinos here are regulated by the Gambling Commission, and you can complain to them if you feel aggrieved. The Commission have very extensive powers and can fine operators for irregular conduct, or even revoke their license and close them down.

You may or may not have any legal recourse, but Party Poker, as are all of the reputable gaming sites, is in some way answerable to its licencing authority; in the case of Party, that would be the Government of Gibralter. You may lodge your grievance here. A single e-mail from one dissatisfied customer might not get much attention. It may help if you can marshal up the participation others effected by this apparent dereliction of trust.

Four Dogs said:

You may or may not have any legal recourse, but Party Poker, as are all of the reputable gaming sites, is in some way answerable to its licencing authority; in the case of Party, that would be the Government of Gibralter. You may lodge your grievance here. A single e-mail from one dissatisfied customer might not get much attention. It may help if you can marshal up the participation others effected by this apparent dereliction of trust.

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Thank you for this information, very helpful!

They are giving him $1,800 when they dont have to give him anything and the law was changed by HIS government making it illegal for him to play online poker. OneMoreBust, i'd be pissed as well if i was you but Party Poker have behaved admirably by giving you a cash amount for your entry (if that is in fact what they have done) - Titan didn't do this for Threesixes. You should be directing your fury at your government not Party Poker.

They've 'behaved admirably' by essentially holding back $5-15 million (the estimates vary) in funds primarily contributed by players paying extra rake in the belief that Party would see this promo through?

Umm, okay. If I go to rob a bank and get $1 million handed over to me, am I 'behaving admirably' by only taking $500k and leaving the rest?

Party are idiots (the whole Monster promo was stupid anyway, their support sucks, etc etc) and the sooner they crash and burn the better.

Maybe they are using the extra money to try and cover their overlays for the Party Poker Million on Sunday's which hasn't been hitting a Million since pokerstars was running the WCOOP.

robwhufc said:

They are giving him $1,800 when they dont have to give him anything and the law was changed by HIS government making it illegal for him to play online poker. OneMoreBust, i'd be pissed as well if i was you but Party Poker have behaved admirably by giving you a cash amount for your entry (if that is in fact what they have done) - Titan didn't do this for Threesixes. You should be directing your fury at your government not Party Poker.

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1) They dont have to give me anything?
2) My government made the law that screwed all this up, what would your argument be to the English, German, Swedish people who also only got $1800
3) How does holding back 3/4 or 1/2 the prize pool make them "admirable"?
4) I can direct fury at my government, but Party Poker gambled. They made a bet that things wouldn't change on this side of the pond until after the monster, and they lost that bet... That doesn't give them the right to take half the money and run.....

OneMoreBust said:

1) They dont have to give me anything?
2) My government made the law that screwed all this up, what would your argument be to the English, German, Swedish people who also only got $1800
3) How does holding back 3/4 or 1/2 the prize pool make them "admirable"?
4) I can direct fury at my government, but Party Poker gambled. They made a bet that things wouldn't change on this side of the pond until after the monster, and they lost that bet... That doesn't give them the right to take half the money and run.....

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Didn't they add $5 Million of their own money to the Monster Freeroll? Do you expect a slice of that back too? Maybe you should reject the $1,800 and ask for your buy-in back instead?

Thank you VERY much for your detailed and in depth explanation. I'm glad you are an expert on these matters and can answer with a single sentence, but for those of us who DONT already know the answer, would you care to elaborate?

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Perhaps you should consult a LEGAL forum or other more appropriate sources when asking such questions. This is clearly a poker forum, thus you will receive no worthy advice unless someone here happens to have acquired their law degree or cunsulted a law firm already with a similar matter. If I were you, I would suggest consulting from a professional.

Party and other companies have lost millions in recent days. I don't konw what anyone was playing there to begin with, but I doubt they could care less if you sue them because they're not based in the U.S., and if you are, the U.S. government wouldn't allow and waste their time with such a lawsuit under new law...that's just my opinion.

IMO, you have no legal right to any money won at an on-line casino,
I believe the only money your entitled to is the amount you used for the entry into the satellite + whatever your deposit was, and if you are getting anymore than that, be grateful.
As the old saying goes: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth or as I like to put it, Don't kick a gift horse in the teeth....lol

robwhufc said:

Didn't they add $5 Million of their own money to the Monster Freeroll? Do you expect a slice of that back too? Maybe you should reject the $1,800 and ask for your buy-in back instead?

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They added that money to get people to play at their site, it worked... now they have the right to take that back?

Even without that, they are still holding back a significant amount of money put in their by people playing at their site.

I love how all of you are defending Party, normally people can't rip on Party enough, but when they do something this outlandish you think it is fair because the States passed a law, so its not Party's fault?

wsorbust said:

Perhaps you should consult a LEGAL forum or other more appropriate sources when asking such questions. This is clearly a Poker forum, thus you will receive no worthy advice unless someone here happens to have acquired their law degree or cunsulted a law firm already with a similar matter. If I were you, I would suggest consulting from a professional.

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Im sorry, I thought this is a Poker forum? Where many people would be aware of legal or other options I can take. I was actually given a few good pieces of advice from some people here, the best of which was to contact the gaming commission that is over sites like Party.

So this clearly was a good place to post a question, and thus I did receive some worthy advice from people who don't have a law degree.

The post states what legal (course, should be recourse, or options) do I have, but in reality I should have just said, what options... leaving options available beyond the legal realm.

shinedown.45 said:

IMO, you have no legal right to any money won at an on-line casino,
I believe the only money your entitled to is the amount you used for the entry into the satellite + whatever your deposit was, and if you are getting anymore than that, be grateful.
As the old saying goes: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth or as I like to put it, Don't kick a gift horse in the teeth....lol

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So I have no legal right to money collected under false pretenses? Party can say, join this table, extra rake will go to a tournament, and then keep that when things dont work out when it was obvious there was a risk of that?

I just wish all of you had worked hard to get a pass into the Final and could get some real perspective on this, instead of telling me I should be glad that Party ripped me off.

OMB, they are offering you $1800. You feel you are entitled to more. If this is the case then more than likely you will find a lawyer who will be willing to take your case. But take in considereation, how much more money are you talking about for yourself? You say $10,000. Okay fair enough. Now let's look at the big picture here.

From how you are posting I will say that you are from a country that is not home to party poker. You want to know if there is legal recourse for your situation. Of course there is. But the big question is what are you willing to pay to seek remedy. And the next question is will you win?
Being a poker player you know that odds play into every hand. So what are the odds and the return on your investment to persue this matter legally. I would say not too good.
My advice to you is take what they are offering, contact their support stating what you feel is a positive settlement, wait for their stupid reply and delete the site. If you wish to continue going after this matter you will always find a lawyer willing to take your money.

bubbasbestbabe said:

OMB, they are offering you $1800. You feel you are entitled to more. If this is the case then more than likely you will find a lawyer who will be willing to take your case. But take in considereation, how much more money are you talking about for yourself? You say $10,000. Okay fair enough. Now let's look at the big picture here.

From how you are posting I will say that you are from a country that is not home to party poker. You want to know if there is legal recourse for your situation. Of course there is. But the big question is what are you willing to pay to seek remedy. And the next question is will you win?
Being a poker player you know that odds play into every hand. So what are the odds and the return on your investment to persue this matter legally. I would say not too good.
My advice to you is take what they are offering, contact their support stating what you feel is a positive settlement, wait for their stupid reply and delete the site. If you wish to continue going after this matter you will always find a lawyer willing to take your money.

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I agree, but I like one option suggested here, and several others on other forums, where we can pursue different channels besides the legal channel (IE gaming regulation commission).

I think legal as in using the law and lawyers isn't likely to be worth my while, well legal options, such as contacting regulatory bodies may prove worthwhile.

Thanks.

OneMoreBust,

While not a lawyer myself I am a qualified Accountant in which I have covered various areas of the law. bubbasbestbabe has put it best really, you are enitiled to the money owed by partypoker as far as I am concerned however to get it, most likely you would pay more than the sum itself in legal fees. Also like someone else said the gaming commission would most probably disregard the issue unless a sizeable number of people complained in which case they may look into it. I understand how you feel and it's the principle of the thing more than anything that would upset me.

Take the money, uninstall Party and use Pokerstars

G-man

Thanks Gman.

Yeah, Im a realist, I already have written off getting it back, but I'd at least like Party to get their wrists slapped for this.

There are many others on another forum who have been affected my this, so we will be contacting everyone we can to at least have this brought to attention to some regulatory bodies.