What good would moving to lower stakes do?

I keep getting crushed and you guys keep giving me the same advice and I don't understand why moving to lower stakes would help. Example: I have Ks,Js and call a $4 raise otb. The flop is Kc,Jh,8d. The raiser bets $8 and I raise to $24 which he calls. The turn is 2d, the raiser checks and I bet $35 which he calls. The river is 5d so I bet $35 again and he raises to $70 which I call and he wins with 9d,10d (flush). The last time I played I flopped a king high flush and bet, was raised and pushed all in for about $350 which was snap called with a set of queens, he hit the boat on the river. So, I'm down about $600 in those two hands alone when I was a huge favorite after the flop and got (what I consider) some pretty reckless calls.

In the first case I guess it could be argued that I should have bet more after the flop and forced him to fold but I really didn't want him to. I figured him for AK or KQ or something so I wasn't exactly worried about a backdoor flush. In the second case I could have called his $100 raise but I didn't want him to catch a fourth heart in case he had the ace. The turn on that hand was another heart anyway so that would have made me cautious and unable to bet.

My question is wouldn't I be more likely to run into chasers at lower limits? I know when I play 1/2 in a casino it's all about the chase, guys call all in on a 10 high flush draw, you play 2/5 and it's a different game where actual skill comes into play. A gutsy bluff might pay off, and knowing your opponent counts for something. All I'm encountering at 1/2 online is donkey after donkey. The problem is that the math is waaaaaaay off and I can't win. Waiting for premium hands and hitting flops where I'm a big favorite while playing against guys who don't fold should be exactly what I want but instead it's the kiss of death.

Also, am I being too cute when I have a hand? It seems to me that you want to string a guy along when you know you have the best hand.

And, should I be shoving more often myself? I'll fold AK pre flop to an all in bet, I figure why risk my stack on a coin flip at best. I'll also fold up and down straight draws or flush draws to large bets, I'm not favored and it doesn't pay to risk a couple hundred on a pot I only have $20-$30 in.

You move down stakes because you may not be bankrolled enough. You may move down and play against easier opponents and get some confidence. Runs of our opp hitting draws are very common Like you play 20 coin flips and lose all twenty. Runs like that can happen. I've lost 13 out of the last 15 coin flips. It's variance

That question if you should go all in with AK is a question that depends. If your opp is a tight nit then sure fold. What if he's an maniac willing to go all in with all sort of hands. Then you'll go all in against this player with ak. If he has aa then then you just say nh and reload. Your opp having aa or kk while u have ak is very slim because you have an ace and a king so there's only 3 aces and kings left in the deck. Ak is only a 35% underdog against kk

If you wanted to play that hand (KJ otb), then re raise him preflop.

I just don't like playing this hand with a raiser infront of me. If you hit your king you have a good chance of being outkicked, and with a Jack its not much better. 3betting just makes this pot huge, which is something you don't want with a marginal hand like KJ. 3betting KJ in position is bad IMO.

I didn't say it was a good play, I said IF you wanted to play this hand, reraise.

I would have folded to the initial raise.

From what you are saying, it seems to me that you are playing a little scared. If you are not willing to risk what you have on the table and folding your flush draws then you might be playing above your bankroll limits.

It's one thing to fold draws hu with 2:1 odds & another completely different to not be the one betting them or reraising them and I find it hard to believe each time you have a drawing hand you aren't getting odds to chase at times. I'm not saying you should be chasing everytime, but I read nothing here about you betting your draws (semi-bluffing) or do any bluffing or playing anything but premiums or faces.

So yes, upon everything I have read, I believe you should drop limits until you get more comfortable with learning how to play draws, at limits where you are willing to risk all on the table from time to time and it won't effect your br if you lose and until you get more confident with your play.

Are you using HEM or PT3 or any software programs to help you?

Post up some info such as stats, and I'm sure someone on here will be able to tell you a) if you are a player sent by God to take the fishes money and you are just getting horrible coolered everytime you go all-in or b) whether you should drop down stakes slightly and refine your game before reattempting the tables you play now

Actually, I agree with your point. There is no strategy to defeat a player who refuses to fold and then sucks out. I made a point once that I couldn't afford the bad beats - was ridiculed for the most part, but I have also experienced what you have (for far lower stakes however). Theoretically, you will eventually come out on top of the "neverfolds" if you keep making good decisions.

In the first hand, the turn call by villian is a great call!

He had lots of outs...

Moving down Stakes is so you keep to your BRM in action and do not go busto!

Yeah, but he also called a $16 raise trying to hit a straight. The hand never should have made it to the turn.

He had an open ender on the flop and a backdoor flush draw.

I probably would have made both calls.

OK, from what I said I can see that. I will say that if the odds are there I'll take a shot at a draw, I just won't do it into a pot where I have very little invested. I've found that there are enough donks online that it pays to wait until I have a winning hand to commit my chips.

As for playing only premiums and faces, I don't really do that. I try to mix it up depending on the table. If I'm playing at a tight table I'll raise with pretty much anything once in awhile. The table I was describing was pretty loose, there were re-raises pre-flop on about half of the hands that were raised. Most of these re-raises were stone cold bluffs just trying to pick up a raise and a call ahead of them. In that case I won't play too many hands, I'll bide my time and either get in to a moderate raise when I'm last to act or I'll wait until I have a hand to shove in with. My problem at this table was that I was sitting to the right of the re-raiser. I had never seen him before so I didn't know he played that way.

The pot was somewhere near $50ish, and he has to call $16. Do you see why, with implied odds, that that call was totally standard?

Not just standard - It was a GOOD call. On the flop and turn.

perfect river raise too.

There's a few reasons for moving down in stakes, and most of them have been covered above.

You move down because it's good management to only play with a small portion of your bankroll on the table at any one time. You move down because if you're playing badly and making mistakes at least they won't cost you as much at lower stakes. You move down so that you can rebuild your bankroll with lower risk.

Moving down is mostly about risk and money management, not about how people play.

you're way out of your league if you think 1/2 online is donkey after donkey. 1/2 online is actually mostly populated with really good players and if you think they play like donkeys, it means you don't even realize they are outplaying you, which means you're a massive fish.

The simple and quick answer to this is that you will save yourself a lot of money while you learn how to play. From what I've read, I'm guessing that you take a couple buy-ins to the casino and generally do OK, so you decided to play the same stakes online. The major difference here is that online is far tougher than live. 1/2nl live plays like 0.05/0.10 online.

Drop down to maybe 0.10/0.25, play a bunch and post hands in the cash game hand analysis section to get feedback.

I say it's all about the getting to know the others style and your luck...because we all know poker can be a brutal game....smiles... we all have hade the best hand pre flop after the flop but that turn and river can change things sometimes you have to over bet with the best hand to take the pot down ... sometimes you have to adjust your game depending on others style ...good luck at the table

When I was playing last year. I would flop a good hand and then on the river get beat by a flush or straight. It happenened time an time again until I realized that I was the blame. The longer its drawn out the more card he can hit to make his hand. Sometime its better to slow play but if three diamonds are on the board and the player won't back off. Will even put in a raise your're probably beat. Fold and go to the next hand. You have to let go of wishes or dreams there and play the odds.

I find moving down does worse for me lots of fish, and I can't semi bluff i.e rep a king or ace even though I don't have it, trying to semi bluff push someone off and he calls all the way down with A-2 yeah nah I'll prefer to stay where I am each to their own though.

I bet the waiting list grows in all the games you play in lol....

Seriously.. your a HUGE fish if you think 1/2 is filled with "donkey after donkey".

You need to just learn online play and the facts about it. I play 1/2 live and 1c/2c online .. And guess what? The play for 1c/2c is actually better than the play for 1/2 live! Its fact and you need to learn that online play is a whole different ball game.

These 1/2 online players will play 4+ tables at once, some up to 16, and even more depending on what the site allows. These guys mean business.

Wait lists for my table are not long, I've been watching they're no different than any other table but definitely not the longest. I'm just on a real bad run right now. I just lost an all in for $230 w/ AA against 33. If guys want to line up to go all in against me with the worst hand then that's just fine.

It was a joke, kinda -- it takes some time for people/programs to identify you as a fish, once that happens, you'll soon notice shortly after joining a game you'll have a waiting list behind you.

1/2 nl online is harder than 1/2 nl live as I pointed out.. Get your head straight and understand this simple fact--there are donks in 1/2 nl, but not left and right.

EDIT: What is your username and what site?

I'm starting to understand that online is a diffrent monster than what is found on the felt.

Yes, more chasers in lower stakes, but lets get real here, a possible flush might be worth chasing. Apparently it was! Perhaps you are trying a little too hard to drive out hands with potential? Or maybe you should be going all-in after the flop so they have to consider if the reward is worth the risk.

Maybe he's not just playing his cards?

I'd suggest > drop down in stakes & check out a bunch of online poker training vids. Tons of value in these!

Beginning to think that most of what you say on here is a joke (seriously).

There is just so much wrong with this thread

play 10nl please.

What! You're kidding right?

Humor me.

It's bullshit how all of you think I suck. I can't figure out how I'm losing but I know I'm making good decisions. I just got busted (again) to a guy who completely sucked and had the biggest stack at the table. I've watched him play for weeks now and he just plays what I call "bully poker". If you raise, he'll re-raise and just push you around. Tonight he was playing very loose and I got dealt 7,7 utg and raised to $7. He re-raised to $22 so I pushed all in (figuring he would fold), he called with Qs,9s and flopped a flush. Am I nuts or don't most people fold when you call their bluff?

I know that going all in pre-flop with nothing is pretty ****ing dumb but that's how I lose, every time.

BTW, I've run into guys like this in AC. They just like to see flops and chase all day, there was one guy who I watched drop over $2,500 in one night at a 2/5 table. He actually knocked me for $700 on one hand when he went all in w/ nothing and hit a runner, runner to make a flush. Of course in time I knocked him back for more than twice that on the same kind of hand. He called an all in when he was drawing dead.

I guess that I should keep playing these guys and it will even out but I'm just running so ****ing cold right now it's ridiculous. I've made over 50k in the last year and have lost about 8k back in the last 2 months. Maybe I'll just start playing in AC again. The Philly traffic sucks though.