What is a good track record for MTT's?

I remember last year, I would make the final table maybe once or twice out of every 20 games, and I'd make it to the money maybe another 2 times out of the same 20 games, so it would look like this,

1st-9th=Twice, and 10th-18th money spots=2 more times, so out of every 20 games, I'd make it to the money about 4 times.

Now what I'd like to know is what is a good record for cash's in tournies, I need to know this because I feel as if I'm not doing enough, or for W/E reason I could do alot better.

These are all my Cash's in the last day of playing so tell me if i'm on the right track or not, I would have alot more, but I deleted some. Also I've played about 20ish or so games, mind you different ones also like a shoot out, which I did'nt cash at all, and acouple of 2.20s which I did'nt cash at all, so I'd have to say about 20ish or so games today alone, and these are my cashs for them. Is this good/bad/what? If so Bad then why? What record is good? these are the questions I would like answerd, plz and ty all

PokerStars Tournament #133909416, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/14 1:32:51 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 6th place.
A $18.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 74.06 tournament leader points in this tournament.
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PokerStars Tournament #133895851, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/13 23:46:55 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 5th place.
A $23.40 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 81.13 tournament leader points in this tournament.
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PokerStars Tournament #133892965, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/13 23:28:09 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 13th place.
A $4.32 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 50.32 tournament leader points in this tournament.
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PokerStars Tournament #133864989, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $11.00/$1.00
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $1980.00
Tournament started 2009/01/13 20:51:52 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 11th place.
A $23.76 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 82.97 tournament leader points in this tournament.
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PokerStars Tournament #133836597, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/13 18:39:21 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 15th place.
A $4.32 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 46.84 tournament leader points in this tournament.
For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at
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Congratulations!
Thank you for participating.PokerStars Tournament #133823712, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/13 17:26:05 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 16th place.
A $4.32 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 45.35 tournament leader points in this tournament.
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Congratulations!
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PokerStars Tournament #133794051, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $2.00/$0.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/13 14:18:21 ET

Dear abdi122,

You finished the tournament in 1st place.
A $108.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 181.41 tournament leader points in this tournament.
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Congratulations!
Thank you for participating.

I could be wrong,but I believe last year I researched this and it said if you place itm in mtts between 18% and 22% of the time,that you are playing a good game and what not.
I personally place much higher than 22% of the time,but then again I am the master of mtt's.<------just kidding,tring to boost my own ego.
lol.

Just from your posting above with your wins you did decent,, your wins expressed in buy-ins are +9,+11,+2,+2,+2,+2,+54 (rounding numbers). 18% - 22% is a "good" record for a recreational player, however to be a winning player you want to be in the money at least 58%+ of the time, only for the sake of non cash streaks.

58% that's a pretty hard number to achieve, hell today alone I might of place in the money 7% god knows, I try but bad luck/combined with bad card + an aggressive table=Lack of controll and TILT.

I'll try to shoot for that number though

It is not possible to be itm 58% of the time (well it is possible but u would be the greates tourny player ever)

umm tbh, it depends, if u play a high variance style that will see u making deep deep, ft, runs in most of the tournies u cash in, then ur itm % could be lower. if u play a tighter game and just squeak into the money, then u would need ur itm% to be higher

ur itm is pretty good btw

)
Ty, but today was by far the brutaliest of days i've had in a long time. I guess I had it coming though . My ROI (That I was so proud of BTW ), should be shot to shit. On the bright-side to things, I cashed out majority of my winnings.

I had about 100 left back and from that am down to about 20ish or so, so that's how brutal my day has been, but I guess it's just Variance coming at last to bite me in the Ass

58% ITM!!!????


Nah I think you've been watching too many bad american films here!!! Or drinking too many beers perhaps.

I think the focus on ITM rates may be wrong here. Overall in my MTT poker I have a 31% ITM rate and that is judged way too high (although that includes a lot of satellites). In MTTs of more than 180 players (a lot less satellites, it's 27%. Probably way too high again.

I cash a lot but rarely make it to the final table (large field MMTs that is) where the real money is and that's why a high ITM rate is not necessarily a great thing.

It might mean I'm not taking enough risks.

Succesfull poker players should concentrate on getting their ROI as high as possible. I think 15%-25% ROI is a pretty strong player. Those achieving more are probably getting some large cashes!!

Sheesh, it looks to me like you are doing great! Just stay away from those $12 games if they are too high of a percentage (like more than 2%) of your bankroll. You've been killing the $2 180-player games.

I agree with Blunder you need to look at the money part of the equation in connection with the ITM rate. To feel good about yourself just look at the odds to cash (usually 10%) and see if you are higher or lower. If higher good, pat on the back, if way higher tell your friends you are a star and move to Vegas! But bear in mind it's the money part that will keep you from taking advantage of reload offers. I was cashing 35% in the MTTs and seeing my fair share of final tables but not winning tournaments - I was slightly ahead on the money. I've made some adjustments that has knocked my ITM down a couple of points but led to me going deeper and even winning some tournaments, which has improved the money part of it. The one nice thing about a high ITM is that you will be there in the end to observe the best players and pick up some pointers.

Compare your buy-ins to your winnings.... Are you making money? The 58% is for the person that soley relies on MTT's as their source of income. So your telling me you buy into a $100 MTT and only cash 27% of the time. Unless your cashing in the top payout spots, your ROI would be barley breaking even. Say you played 40 $100 MTT's and only cashed 27% of the time... You spend $4000 to enter the tournaments and would need to cash 11 times and win at least $1,080 each time you cashed to break even. Take that 58% back into the equation and you only made $1,080 each cash, your ROI would be five figures.
24

This is a very acceptable ratio, not far different from mine, and I consider myself an MTT specialist.

I achieve approximately 20% ITM, similar to you. My percentage of FTs is a little lower than yours, perhaps because I play larger fields and higher buyins.

Among other well-known CC MTT players, I believe Irexes (for example) has a similar success rate.

You're making less and less sense the more you explain. 58% is reasonable for stts, not mtts. If you averaged $1080 a cash you'd profit with 11% ITM, you could also profit if you mincashed 58% of the time...but tournaments are top heavy.

I doubt anybody is maintaining that high of an ITM...and certainly not with 10x buyin avg cash. I would say most winning tournament players are losing slightly between big cashes.

Just curious is Variance really applicable when it comes to Mtt's. I ask because I try to play a simliar game overall & for some reason I've had a very hard time yesterday, I managed to make it to about 7 Ft's yesterday yet I've bardly finished in the top end of the money aspects. I mean coolers every where I looked yesterday, KK vs AA AIPF, NutFlush combo draws + Open enders= No hits. Just curious as to should we be playing hands like this extremly aggressive so that way we can have all the money in the pot prior to hitting or should we be playing them as they are (Only drawing hands).

Also wondering about the merits of Variance when it comes to Mtt`s

Ty all

Uh, yes...very much. I said "losing slightly", but actually the biggest mtt winners are often losing alot between big cashes, because they are going for the win.

It's the ROI not the ITM that tells if it its succes or not.
your 15 / 16 place gives you 4.32 $ but a first place gives you 108 (25 times the 15/16 place)

You won 233$ and you have paid (20*2.20)44$ so you have a net winning of 189$ and as most players, (except Cardschats players) are losing players those numbers seem pretty good.

You have your opinion I have mine.... I think that you are a tool!

those hand are for when you have many chips. like the first 3 levels, in end game high cards rules.

I do hope I am not hijacking this tread by trying to answer this.

Well, that's nice. Pretty sure opinions don't count for much in math, though. I was confused by your explanation post, but I see now it was just one error you made. 4000/11=/=1080...still have no idea how you decided on 58%.

Whenever I go to opr it shows the highest earning mtt players and never seen an ITM % anywhere near that high. Of course some of them got lucky and all their earnings are from one recent tournament, but many are very good tourney pros at ~15% ITM.

OPR some top pros.And seriously, ur being the tool

and itm means nothing, roi does

See I didn't take 4000 and divide this by 11. I took 100x40=4000. I then took 4000/27%=1080. (assuming one only won the minimum and only placed in the money 27% of the time). And btw, obtaining even 60% in MTT is obtainable.
~mod edit: keep it civil~

Disagreeing and arguing a point is one thing. You can do that and be respectful without calling names.

My knee-jerk reaction is to close this thread. However, I'm going to give you a chance to carry-on in an adult manner. Anymore outbursts and it will be closed.

Recreating a thread that was closed ...

Is there any by-thumb rule indicating the roi you need to be moderately successfull in mtts ?

I figure being in the first 10% (standard pay-out) 20% of the time will do.

Am I completely erring here ?

Any numbers for sngs (1-9) players ?

I'd like to hear further opinions - no need to get mad if opinons differ.

At the risk of looking like I'm talking to myself...

I am reopening this thread since naruto was getting some good input before the whole thing went in the sewer. I have deleted the garbage posts, and expect that you all will carry on wtih the topic of the thread.

Anymore trollish type posts/baiting/name-calling/etc. will be dealt with swiftly. I trust you all to conduct yourselves according to the rules and guidelines of CC.

Ty JQ, I swear I was liking readiing the thread at first and then the more I read the more I was like WTF happend .

Once again ty for being as kind as you are and not the power hogger/Bully I once thought you were .

Jk (btw)

Well, you're not supposed to restart locked threads, but it wasn't the original topic that lead to the lock...

You can be successful in mtts with a chip accumulation strategy, where you either build a huge stack to for the win or bust...or you can lean more towards a game of survival with a higher ITM %. Wouldn't say either was wrong, but the prizemoney escalates towards the end, rewarding some risk taking.

...but that's not ROI, any positive ROI is good . It can all be worked out to $/hr which would be a pro's main goal. You can decide for yourself what an acceptable return on your time is. mtt ROI will naturally fluctuate alot. I think 30% ROI at single table sngos is considered very good, I don't know what best players have. There are sites you can search to see the results of successful players to get a better idea.

I unlocked that thread. I'll merge the two.

Thank you so far.
I figured it was a good question in the original thread - it truly ran bad enough....though.

I usually don't restart closed threads - for obvious reasons.
I have learnt that the pay-out structure is worth a close look at -
(-partly even in freerolls -) and I do some adding before I start playing.
Closed a leak here I think.

...but looking at my overall roi 2009 until now - I suck big time.
...luckily I stick to some BRM...
...and haven't played that much this year either.

The funny thing is:
I place ITM in MTT freeroll donkaments (1,5K-10K players) regularly (apprx. 1-2 a week)
In different games. NLHE/LiHE/OHilo/OH,Razz
And I don't play everyday - prob still amateur.
( I love the game but still have to improve)

Thanks anyway for further input

Well, variance is basically the same thing as luck, either good or bad. Over the long-run, things should even out. I wouldn't change your game; you're doing very well, except maybe 50 tourneys a day is too much. hehe. I don't know. All those coolers you talk about are part of the variance in MTTs, i.e. bad luck, imo.

No, but you should have. You already came up with 11/40 cashes for 27%. There is no reason to use 27% again, $1080 is a meaningless number in your example. After rake a breakeven avg cash for 27% ITM is ~$400 in $109 buyin.

60% ITM might be attainable in $5 20% payout fields if you played to mincash, but is not desirable with mtt payout structures, as you'd almost surely have to avoid some profitable allins or limp into the money.

~mod edit~ 60% is totally unattainable for MTT (nor is it desirable by the way). I've neven seen anyone with a 60% ITM rate. Hell I've never seen anyone with a 40% ITM rate. It's simply doesn't exist (~mod edit~).

But if you are so sure this happens, would you care to post links to OPR profiles that show such high ITM rates? I have browsed 1000s of player profiles and I have never seen anyone with an ITM higher than 35%.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT here's my brag:


PokerStars Tournament #415154154, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $200,000.00/$43,530.20
180 players
Total Prize Pool: $990,559,360.00
Tournament started 2009/01/14 1:32:51 ET

Dear icemonkey9,

You finished the tournament in 1st place.
A $425,000,000 award has been credited to your Real Money account. You are by far the baddest ass mofo on stars. Everyone bows to you dude. Rock on and go watch REVENGE OF THE BEACH BASH BROTHERS IX: The hidden Gibby G-Spot of Doom.

You earned 6.06 tournament leader points in this tournament.
For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tournaments/leader-board/

Always knew you had it in you, Ice. Well done, mate.

I swear I thought that was the real thing at first . Then I was like this is Ice everyone knows how bad he truely runs at times . and that there be no way even if hell froze over with his type of luck he'd win that much

I prob missed it somewhere, are these for 180's?

What is the big deal ice, 6.06 leader board points, no big deal

Honestly, excellent result, well done.