What do you think pros think of poker forums?

#1 12th February 2008, 11:50 AM

Do you think they're happy to have more players in the game in general and are willing to accept a tradeoff, that the abilities of players overall are rising?

Or are they worried that they won't be able to keep ahead of trends or that the gap between us and them is becoming smaller?

Or you think they laugh at the idea of fish helping other fish improve?

I remember a conversation with a very successful stock trader a couple of years ago. I asked what effects the age of information has had on his trade, and he told me that it was brilliant. With so much published material on investing with faulty or poorly explained advice, and everyone so freely able to communicate their inaccurate theories, he said it was a dream for the professional.

#2 12th February 2008, 2:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wreckoning

Or are they worried that they won't be able to keep ahead of trends or that the gap between us and them is becoming smaller?

No, they're not worried about that at all. I believe it was in one of the last Poker After Dark shows where the players talked about the fact that virtually all "internet superstars" who have gone to the top have just as quickly fallen back to the bottom again.

Also, Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth made fun of how internet players think that certain moves are always good while others are always weak.
Phil open-limped from the button, and both he and Daniel agreed that this is certainly a play they both will make sometimes. Daniel then said that on internet forums they'd call this move "so negative E" (he probably meant -EV), and both of them were clearly amused about the concept.

P.S.: On another forum, I found an actual quote from the show: "You do this, the internet kids laugh like craaaazy when you make this play; they think : oh my goodness, thats so negative E, oh my goodness, how can you limp on the button, it's soo baaad."

#3 12th February 2008, 2:33 PM

I think they see it much like the stock trader does.

I think tilt is the x-factor. You can have all the knowledge in the world, but if you start steaming away after a station being presented with horrible odds draws out, you are going to lose.

I think that is what seperates the very good/pro player from the average player. They do not blow up after that. They keep their cool and keep playing. Eventually getting their money back.

So I think the forums and books are great for the exceptional and pro players, because they get more people at the table who think they know what they are doing.

#4 12th February 2008, 6:09 PM

Well in a low-stakes cash game, limping on the button probably is pretty much every time a bad play. If you're playing with world-class players on the other hand, you just have to mix up everything you do. Watch Sammy Farha play. I'm not a big fan of him but he will make moves that would never work against the type of players I'd play against online, but using his strategy he is able to hold his own with the best players in the world. I don't know what type of players he's talking about. Tyler Caby, an extremely good poker player said joining a poker forum was the best advice he could give. Granted he is an online player.

But the main point about for example this site, is our goal is not to be able to sit down and play with Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, Doyle Brunson, etc. and win. Most people here have a goal to beat low to mid stakes tourneys and cash games online. It would be like major league baseball players showing up at a U14 baseball practice and laughing at them. Now don't get me wrong we have several extremely excellent players at this forum, but I don't think any of them could for example sit down at high stakes poker and even break even, they'd get destroyed. But we do have people making money, in some cases a lot of it, from the games they're good at. Most people wouldn't mind being world-class poker players, but most people realize that is a long-shot.

#5 12th February 2008, 6:24 PM

I think it would be a mistake to assume that all poker pros feel the same way about forums.

#6 12th February 2008, 6:58 PM

I would think it's probably like laughable amateur town most of the time to them, but who knows.

#7 12th February 2008, 7:09 PM

Maybe they are on cardchat dishing out good advice.

#8 12th February 2008, 7:12 PM

Yes, some will undoubtedly be members of forums such as this...

#9 12th February 2008, 7:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachvac

Well in a low-stakes cash game, limping on the button probably is pretty much every time a bad play. If you're playing with world-class players on the other hand, you just have to mix up everything you do. Watch Sammy Farha play. I'm not a big fan of him but he will make moves that would never work against the type of players I'd play against online, but using his strategy he is able to hold his own with the best players in the world. I don't know what type of players he's talking about. Tyler Caby, an extremely good poker player said joining a poker forum was the best advice he could give. Granted he is an online player.

But the main point about for example this site, is our goal is not to be able to sit down and play with Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, Doyle Brunson, etc. and win. Most people here have a goal to beat low to mid stakes tourneys and cash games online. It would be like major league baseball players showing up at a U14 baseball practice and laughing at them. Now don't get me wrong we have several extremely excellent players at this forum, but I don't think any of them could for example sit down at high stakes poker and even break even, they'd get destroyed. But we do have people making money, in some cases a lot of it, from the games they're good at. Most people wouldn't mind being world-class poker players, but most people realize that is a long-shot.

Dude, I was so ready to pony up $1500 for WSOP Event #2 on May 31st... until I read your post.

#10 12th February 2008, 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arahel_jazz

Dude, I was so ready to pony up $1500 for WSOP Event #2 on May 31st... until I read your post.

You wouldn't be sitting with world-class players at a random $1500 WSOP event. If you're a solid player (and I know you are, you were drafted onto my team ), you should be able to hold your own at a tournament like that. You need a lot of luck, but so do all the pros to win the thing. Hopefully you don't draw the Ivey-Negreanu-Cunningham table and instead the table with Jamie Gold and his mom lol.

#11 12th February 2008, 7:36 PM

Who cares if they think that a certain move would be seen as "bad" by internet poker players? Certain things pro players can get away with that you could NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS get away with in online poker, because of familiarity and because of intimidation. With familiarity of opponents comes a much greater ability to vary things up. Same with playing online computer games etc. Go watch the video of Helmuth bluffing out somebody with 72o vs KK. It worked coz he knew his opponent and his opponent (thought he did at least) knew his "normal" betting pattern. So if online poker players try to play casino poker exactly as if it was online, then i could see why pro players could see it as bit of a joke, because they are quite different.

As for forums, i hardly think they are threatened. Drawing a parallel to online gaming at least, forums are, in general, where subpar-decent/good players interact with one another. Top players don't tend to participate.

#12 12th February 2008, 8:06 PM

really depends on the forum i've been to many of them and for poker knowledge cardchat is by far the BEST.

#13 13th February 2008, 7:48 AM

I've never heard anyone saying you shouldn't ever limp on the button, it's useful if your current strategy includes limping preflop if you want to keep the pot small, or to give yourself better implied odds when you have position and can leverage more effectively on the other streets, or to keep yourself from getting raised out from an aggressive restealer when you have a speculative hand. As long as you mix it up which kinds of hands you do it with, I don't see why that would be a bad play. Do a lot of the pros really think all online players are that homogeneous?

#14 13th February 2008, 1:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexeiVronsky

I've never heard anyone saying you shouldn't ever limp on the button

Go to 2+2, post a hand history where you open-limp from the button and check the reactions.

#15 13th February 2008, 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickinbutz

the word "pro" is throwed around the poker world way to much.
What is a poker pro.someone that plays 10-12 hrs. a day,and doesnt have a dime to show,yeah I'm PRO...I like the forums.

A pro to me is someone whose only income is from poker, and they are able to live off of that. Just like any other profession. This does not include someone living in there parents basement making $4 hr from poker...just incase someone wanted to twist that all up.

happy?

#16 13th February 2008, 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathrok

A pro to me is someone whose only income is from poker, and they are able to live off of that. Just like any other profession. This does not include someone living in there parents basement making $4 hr from poker...just incase someone wanted to twist that all up.

happy?

It would be extremely difficult to only make your income from poker, most of them have other sources of income, too. To me a poker pro is somebody who gave up their regular full-time job to play poker, spends the majority of their life travelling to major poker tournaments, and has made sufficient money to know that they won't have to go back to their old full-time job any time during the next few years.

#17 14th February 2008, 3:40 AM

ChrisTC, I don't really follow poker news too well unfortunately, but I thought Moneymaker was doing okay still? And what about the theory that all the up-and-coming pros- who may have become pro eventually regardless of the Net or not- can learn all the much faster because of the hands per hour and multi-tabling on the Net?

#18 14th February 2008, 7:20 AM

Internet players have been doing very well in tournaments from what I've seen, perhaps the old guard's just underrating them. Considering the level of competition they're offering world class players who have been living and playing poker for decades, I think it's a somewhat odd that they would think that internet players aren't as good or as capable of mixing up their play.

#19 14th February 2008, 8:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexeiVronsky

I've never heard anyone saying you shouldn't ever limp on the button, it's useful if your current strategy includes limping preflop if you want to keep the pot small, or to give yourself better implied odds when you have position and can leverage more effectively on the other streets, or to keep yourself from getting raised out from an aggressive restealer when you have a speculative hand. As long as you mix it up which kinds of hands you do it with, I don't see why that would be a bad play. Do a lot of the pros really think all online players are that homogeneous?

^^

Also when watching High stakes poker I dont think they play there perfect game.I think some of the moves they do they do it because they are on the tv.

I think it is strange if it is not any internet player who is much better than the best live players. Internet players play much more hands and should be better than live players because of that.

#20 14th February 2008, 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustme

I think it is strange if it is not any internet player who is much better than the best live players. Internet players play much more hands and should be better than live players because of that.

A lot of people who play live poker also play on the internet, so although live play and internet play have differences, it is often the same people doing it. Maybe separating them into different groups is a flawed concept...

#21 19th February 2008, 2:42 AM

most of the pros don't care at all. the big time pros make as much money(or more) from endorsements as they do poker. so it doesn't matter if others are improving

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