What Are Beginners Supposed To Do?

I'm going to be honest with you. You may laugh at me, you may sneer and snigger to yourselves with sharky glee. But this is the truth of it.

I became interested in online poker earlier this year. I played with play money for quite some time never daring to deposit real money because of a deep seated fear of being ripped off, cheated and taken for a ride.

But along the way I meet a friend who also likes poker and has begun to study it and is convinced it's ok to play for real. So, in Sept I made my first deposit at FT. I buy in for a good amount to make use of their sign up bonus but realise afterwards that it will take forever to release that bonus money.

As a total beginner I proceed to play as I did on play money (like a fish) and money starts to leech out of my account. I get enticed by larger stake MTTs which offer bigger prizes but as I'm useless the money is wasted. I never end up in the money.

Then I take stock, research the net and start to understand how to play. I tighten up, learn about pot odds, hand values, bluffing, MTT strategy, squeeze play etc, buy the Harrington books and some others and suddenly I move up from Donk to .. well. still a beginner but one willing to learn and get better. I start placing in the money on some MTTs, I have some good days at the cash tables but overall, it always ends up with me going broke and needing to make more deposits. I'm not risking all my money on one table mind, I'm exercising BRM, trying to get a bankroll breathing.
But no matter how I try I am continually busted by magic rivers, crazy deals and agressive players. I start to wonder if all is fair and square and launch myelf down Totally Rigged Lane. And then I start to research rigging, cheating and collusion and everything changes!

Remember I'm still a beginner here, an innocent member of the public, using hard earned cash to hopefully have a little fun and maybe make some money. But I'm not having fun at all and am losing money.

The info I uncover disturbs me greatly. I find that in fact the poker sites are full of:

- players using illegal datamining software to home in on fish, track how they bet and exploit them to the full

- players colluding together, discussing each others hole cards and creaming me out of every $

- players deploying poker bots which are running upwards of 20 tables at a time making perfect calculations and creaming $000s per month off people like me

I even start to research poker bots specifically and learn that bots can communicate with each other and share hole cards and thus have a massive advantage over innocent players.

I find that discussing any of it on forums leads to ridicule and "WTF did you expect ?" comments. Turns out that I'm the intruder. It's like "how dare you even step into the ring with us ! we're gonna take you for every $ you have"

The sharks have no moral fibre whatsoever. They dare not play players of their own standing but would rather stick to playing complete novices. There is no honour in the game.

And here I am.

I love the game but really "What are the beginner supposed to do?"

My view right now is, stay as far away as possible. No amount of text book learning and poker tracker studying is going to make me a winner whilst so much cheating is going on unchecked.

Am I right? Is there any hope whatsoever for a struggling beginner without joining the ranks of unscrupulous cheaters?

Welcome to CC and I don't think you're right.

I too started playing for fake $$, got the itch and deposited ($50). I was still scared money so I only played the lowest buy-in SnGs (good for BRM) and managed to stay above water though I wasn't really making any money. I donked around playing only SnGs for almost a year and managed to turn my $50 into $500 in that time.

In that time I also found CardsChat and started reading the terrific posts and posters here. Quickly I realized that I wanted to play cash games, so I moved a couple of hundred to FT and never looked back. I don't play as high as a lot of the best players here and I still tilt way too much, but I consistantly make money playing online.

I don't cheat or use any software other than PT3 while I play. I've never colluded or done anything that you could consider unscrupulous. Yet my meager poker mind manages to win. If I can do this anyone can.

Patience and commitment are the only two skills you need imo. Use the forums as much as possible. Reading the HA posts here is free and you'll get the wisdom of some really great players without risking a dime.

Stick around and post enough to play the CC free rolls. They're free, full of great competition, and a decent BR boost should you cash. Most of all, learn to have fun playing, because if you're not why continue.

gl.

Yeah, what Hillbilly said .. make your way up to 50 posts and participate in the CC freerolls. It's fun, free, and you can learn something in them.

Also, I would have suggest learning to play poker live before online poker.. but hey, that's just me. Others may think differently.

Hey thanks guys. Maybe I should stick at it then.

Any ideas on how I avoid the bots ?

I'm in agreement, all I use is poker tracker, and even that I just use for the sake of session review at the end. I have managed to climb steadily in my bankroll in my short time on here, from 50 to 300 in less than a month with no special skill. All you have to do is be willing to learn, and try to look at yourself objectivly, and you'll improove. I haven't seen many hands by the standards on here, but at least on Poker Stars in my 17000 hands I've never had the impression that I was being cheated, and I've never cheated myself. No offense intended, but could you just be using the thought of cheaters as an easy way to tell yourself it's not your fault you're losing? Which hearkens back to needing to look at your play objectivly, thus the need for programs like poker tracker, which put your play right in your face in a way you can't deny.

As of this writing, you've got two posts, and the first one was great. We would very much like you sticking around. You can write even!

Spend half the time you were spending playing, and use that time to learn Cardschat. Read the articles, twice, dig down through the old threads, you will find so much here that goes so far beyond the books, that it will, in the end, amaze you.

Ask questions!!!!!!! Get familiar with the Analysis sections, both ring and tourney, and tell us what your view is on a hand. If we seem to berate you, we really aren't, we are criticizing and the net just doesn't get it across the same as a good natured discussion with your friends.

I'm one of those guys who started swearing to myself I would never deposit real money, played that way for about 2.5 years. I would win some freeroll money and spend it getting used to real money games. I then did deposit a modest amount, and haven't looked back, My deposit total was about 75 bucks, (unclear exactly as this all happened when the UIEGA started and NetTeller kicked all us americans out.

I have withdrawn 8 times that initial amount, and still have about 10 times my initial deposit.


There are ways, and you found the best way when you found Cardschat.!


As for the bots. Ignore what you think are bots. They probably do exist, but there are ways around them. Concentrate on your game, not on some one (or something) elses game. Your only interest in their game should be in detecting any pattern from their bets. You do this with both live players and bots. When you get your game good, it won't matter who you are playing.

If you get a chance to prove any collusion, send that proof to the site the collusion happened on. You will most likely be surprised. Every now and then, several sites will provide a bot proof screen. It asks the player to type in those tweaked out characters you find here and there which are unreadable to bots.

As for the honour of the game. Think about any sport you are not totally terrible in. Perhaps you even have considered yourself good at that. Put yourself in a contest, even with no money involved, with one of the acknowledged greats in that sport. DO you think they are thinking about honour? They are thinking about getting this thing over with ASAP, and your feelings don't mean shit to them. (you might be British spelling honor that way) You are a beginner, the basic rules of poker are easy, even the basic odds of poker are not so hard, but the true spirit of poker can NOT be found in less than a year. It might take 5 years to even realize that you don't have a clue but have caught a glimpse of the real game of poker. This does not mean you can not even hope to be a winning player. You can expect to get some decent winnings now and then, and with practice that now and then becomes shorter and shorter and suddenly you find yourself on the plus side of the ledger.

Study and patience are the keys. Hang in there a little while longer.

A couple things

A) It takes a long time and a lot of hard work to become a winning player on your own. It took me about 8 months and losing more money than I care to divulge to finally start winning when I first started. Do the smart thing, and if you really want to win seek the help of others. Maybe spend the $150 or so and get a membership at a training site. Get a copy of PokerTracker or Holdem Manager, they are essential to improving your game. Spend lots of time in the hand analysis section of the forums here. Most of the experienced members here, myself included, are more than willing to help players who are actively looking to improve, so don't be afraid to ask questions.

B) If you stick to the mainstream sites like Full Tilt and PokerStars, cheating is pretty much non-existent. They have very advanced methods for detecting any sort of foul play. If you feel you're being cheated, contact support and they will conduct an investigation in to it. Hell, apparently there were some people colluding in some SnG's I was playing. I didn't realize it at the time, but one day Stars sent me an e-mail letting me know and re-imbursed my account.

C)I mean no offense with what I'm about to say but it needs to be said. Paranoia is a bitch. No one is out to get you. It's very easy to use the thought of being cheated as a way to validate your losses. People have a hard time dealing with not being able to win, but for some reason rarely do they come to realize the truth; that they're just not good enough. The sooner you realize that you are a losing player, the sooner you can start on the road to improvement.

D) About bots . . . The fact is, for the most part they are horrible horrible players. The best bot in the world (Polaris), is about as good as some of the worlds best players, but it is only able to play Heads Up Limit Hold'em. And all the bots that people use are lightyears behind Polaris. I doubt there is a bot around that could be a winner in a game bigger than 3 handed with players that are somewhat competent, especially if the game is No Limit.

E) The good winning players are going to seek you out and try to take your money. That's what good players do. You look for players that arent as good as you, and you take their money. I wouldn't make any money if I only played with people who are as good or better than me.

Welcome to CardsChat

Think it's pretty much all been said above - if you're playing on the major sites like Full Tilt or Stars you don't need to be that worried about bots as they're normally pretty good at finding and removing them. They also take issues like collusion very seriously and are constantly on the lookout for it. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it shouldn't be that big a problem for you.

On the other issues, I look at poker very much like a food chain. At the top are the really good players, and at the bottom are the completely hopeless cash-spewing donkeys.

The very fact that you're even thinking about issues like this puts you ahead of the latter category. The trick is in identifying the players that are better than you and avoiding them, and then playing instead with the ones that are worse. As someone whose name escapes me once said, you don't need to be the best player at the table. You just need to be able to beat the worst player.

Best of luck, keep reading and learning and I'm sure you'll be fine.

Hey the online poker world is cruel. But like others have said stick with it and play tight. I've had my share of ups and downs but honestly when i stick to my game and my poker skill level, i will usually do alright. Of course bad beats still happen but this too only will improve your patience and understanding of the game. Billy is right. I have only been on cardschat for a week or two, but i have already learned a great deal about on line gaming and i have been online for 3 years now. So best advice keep it up and dont go for the glory it will all come into place. And the freerolls r the best way to perfect your game and maybe win a little 2. Good Luck!

I can't believe none of you told him... Man... Always leaving it to me

New player right? Okay, you're gonna need to send me a $5.00 question and answer fee.


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Well thanks guys, this seems a really friendly forum :-)

WIll start trawling the good advice here

Like everyone said keep reading and practice patients, CC is one of the best for someone just learning poker. I been playing for about 2 years and been a member here for about the same, I started playing the freerolls and donked out for around 1 and half years, now I make a couple of bucks here and there, and a lot of my understanding of poker I got here on CC. I made one deposit way back when i started playing that lasted about 2 weeks, but I will make another when I think I am ready! Good Luck and learn a little more before you make any more deposits lol.

Great Posts by everyone and true information. There is alot of poker software out there but mostly to help players improve and track theyre own play. I read earlier today the pokerstars has banned shark scope on theyre site. The comments made by long time CC regulars is very useful and helpful to any level of player.
Thanks!!

The only thing I can think to add here is that poker is really hard. Playing is easy, winning can also be easy, but turning a profit is hard work. You can play perfect poker and still lose. You can make a few small mistakes that cost you days recouping the losses. And no matter how good you are, you can be outplayed.

The best advice I can think of is this:
1) Play at stakes you can afford to lose until you start making consistent profit.
2) Go over your sessions after the fact. Often in the heat of the game, players don't know if they made the right decision. Taking time after to the game to analyze your play can work wonders.
3) Don't be too results oriented. Concentrate on making the right decisions, and the money will follow.
4) Enjoy yourself. Poker is supposed to be fun.

i to play on full tilt poker and play the lower tourneys but there you will find the players who will call anything and will catch on the river i like to play at the 5 dolla level cause it seems they play more poker than lotto there you just have to learn from the mistakes and sit back and figure what could hit on the river to give them a winning hand over yours only bet it big if you feel you have a sure thing dont bet it big if you think you might get lucky but i would love to play with you and try and help you out look for me sometime my name on full tilt is the biatch22 im like always there playing some cash some play and lots of tourneys i love playin in the big tourneys lol