True EV: Ramblings on Causality in Poker

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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Motivation

I was recently listening to an old Bart Handson Podcast where he interviews Tommy Angelo (shocker - Scourrge citing Tommy Angelo :rolleyes: ). They bring up the idea of an action being +EV in a single, isolated hand, but -EV in the context of a session. The specific example was a pure hypothetical, in which a player can take a wager (he has to call a bet) in which he knows the villain's range, and if he called, he'd be a 51% favorite (or even better, let's just say his EV is 1bb). In a vacuum, this is a pretty obvious call. It's +EV mathematically against the villain's range, and that's all that matters... Right?

But what if you have to call off 400bb and the resulting pot will be 1,000bb? If the EV in a vacuum is +1bb, then the swing you will experience in this spot is enormous. What effect does this have on your mental game? If you lose, will you be unable to continue playing +EV poker in what otherwise would have been a profitable game? Will you continue playing in a now -EV game, making poor decisions, and costing yourself more EV than what the play gained you?


Causality: The Problem With Vacuums

Many items that we discuss in poker are discussed in very definitive, limited units. We talk about a single session, a single hand, and even a single street. But this presents us with a number of problems. Very often, in particular when discussing betting strategy, we forget to mention recent (or ancient) history that affects the EV of a given situation. Perhaps we're posting a hand analysis thread on CC, and we neglect to mention that we had just seen villain stack off for 150bb with 98o on a QT3r board. Or we forget that we have more history with a certain reg - it's in our heads, but subconsciously.

But the podcast interview I was listening to got me thinking more about vacuums in relation to the future. In that example, the EV of the situation is different than we would expect, because there is a 49% chance that we lose the pot, which would cause us to tilt. The tilt (in a vacuum) would cost us more EV than the play (in a vacuum) would make us.

The EV of the so-called +EV mathematical decision is actually -EV because of the events it causes. Causality implies that a vacuum-based decision with some EV may have a higher or lower True EV due to future events caused (all or in part) by the decision in question.

This might strike you as highly theoretical, but to me it's the exact opposite. The first example should show just how practical this really is. How many of us have NEVER been in a spot where we made a +EV call, lost, and then proceeded to go on monkey tilt and spew away money? If this is you, then cast the first stone, my friend. For the rest of us, these types of decisions are never made in a mental game vacuum, so discussing the EV of those decisions as if they were means that we're missing something fundamental in how we dissect our own decisions.


There Is No (Causality Vacuum)-Spoon

Mental game is not the only decision-caused or decision-causing factor that can affect the True EV of our poker decisions and overall profitability. The tricky thing about life is that pretty much everything affects everything else. A simple example is what we eat. Most people would agree that how we eat affects not just how we look, but how we feel emotionally and mentally. Taking this just one step further, we see that it follows directly that how we eat will affect our poker performance, whether it be through mental game considerations, or deeper health issues. Sleep is another health-related concern that affects the True EV of our poker game. It seems obvious that playing tired is hugely -EV for most players, or at the very least, less +EV than playing at peak alertness.

Studying the game is another big factor in True EV. Most people realize on some level that study affects their profitability in poker. But I think that most people don't actually think about the long-standing effects of study on their EV in the game. If you play poker at your current limit and make $20/hour, then your EV/hour is $20 in the short-term. Maybe in the long-term, you're able to move up and make $30/hour simply by playing the game and thinking through your decisions at the table. How does studying factor into this though? Some possible ways include:

  • Increasing your win-rate at your current limit
  • Allowing you to move up faster
  • Increasing the highest limit you're able to reach long-term
  • Stopping you from burning out by making a balance between play/study

We can make the list even more complicated by trying to factor in enjoyment of the game, and how that factors into EV, but I'll keep this focused just on the money here. Just keep in mind that what you care about in poker (making the most money, playing the highest limits you can, being the best in the world) also must factor into your own personal EV equations.


Short-Term EV, Long-Term EV, and You

How does this all help you though? Well, it doesn't really. At least not inherently. What it does do is allow you to make more-informed decisions, and evaluate your EV in a deeper way than you probably did before. It gives you a way to think about your decisions that takes into account both immediate and future consequences. Whether you choose to think about any of this is of course up to you. But I think that starting to consider your True EV - without any causality vacuum - will be decidedly +EV.
 
BluffMeAllIn

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in, to read this evening. Loving all your posts scourge so don't imagine this will be any different :D. Thanks.
 
hashtag

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So you're saying there is no spoon... because it may in fact take the form of a spork?

Just kidding. This was a good read. Thanks for posting.
 
micromachine

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Very nice post, definitely something to think about. I've entered big pots where I pretty much know I am going to be flipping many times without considering the emotional impact of losing that pot.

I appreciate the impact of sleep, diet, exercise, inebriation, boredom etc on EV, so I'll just reiterate that the effect these factors can have on your game should not be underestimated!
 
BluffMeAllIn

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Very nice post, definitely something to think about. I've entered big pots where I pretty much know I am going to be flipping many times without considering the emotional impact of losing that pot.

I appreciate the impact of sleep, diet, exercise, inebriation, boredom etc on EV, so I'll just reiterate that the effect these factors can have on your game should not be underestimated!

I am not sure I understand what this "sleep" is? LOL

Yes a great post reviewed through yesterday and certainly does get you thinking about things. :( because with exception of always being sober and not bored all of the items listed as impact in EV I am horrible with.

+1 on getting us all thinking deeper Scourge.
 
zEric7x

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This why I consider a buffer when making decisions like that. I would be a lot more likely to make a 60/65% edge than a 55% edge. But even then this is still poker and I still lose spots like that.

Like if I hold AK on the flop but lose to A4 on the turn/river. I guess I agree getting bad beats definitely changes the way I play sometimes.
 
DrazaFFT

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Great post Scourge, definitely something to think about, i really enjoyed reading, i have a life style full of unhealthy habits, weekend drinker, smoker and junk food addict add to that that i don't have good sleeping habit and i cut from my sleep time to sit infront of computer so saying that im living a huge -EV life, i actually considered while ago to make some changes in order to make my life healthier not just because i want to be successful at poker but because last time i check sitting in front of computer doesn't burn much calories...
Also to add to that im interested how time of day relates to someone ev, some are mourning persons, im definitely a night owl, if you find a time of day where you think that you can bring your best game then it also should be +ev playing then and adjusting your the schedule to that if possible...
 
Mr Sandbag

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Great post as always. Especially relevant for low stakes live poker.

Whenever I get into very marginal +/-EV situations - like flipping for stacks pre - I tend to fold even if I know I'm ahead. A perfect example is a hand awhile back when I raised to $12 pre with QQ, and a guy 3bet shoves for $200+. I'd seen him do this before with AK, but I folded. He wasn't a good player. I knew I had a huge edge on him overall. And if I called and lost, my edge would be "dulled" by my emotions. Why flip for stacks and put myself in a super high variance spot when I can avoid tilt and retain a massive edge over my opponent during every hand after that?
 
duggs

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sounds about right, there are other variations not just involving mental game.
taking a 51% edge against a whale who is likely to
a) leave the game if we stack him
b) hit n run if he stacks us

our true EV edge probably fluctuates depending on
1/ expected length of session
2/ number of regs who could potentially take the soft spots
3/ forecast table conditions
4/ mental game stability
5/ variance associated constraints on game (bust, busting everyone)

thats a quick mental list but heaps more
 
Matt Vaughan

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sounds about right, there are other variations not just involving mental game.
taking a 51% edge against a whale who is likely to
a) leave the game if we stack him
b) hit n run if he stacks us

our true EV edge probably fluctuates depending on
1/ expected length of session
2/ number of regs who could potentially take the soft spots
3/ forecast table conditions
4/ mental game stability
5/ variance associated constraints on game (bust, busting everyone)

thats a quick mental list but heaps more

That's a great list of additional ones. Another one that struck me - but that I didn't mention because it gets hammered home enough elsewhere - is bankroll management.
 
Lheticus

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I tip my imaginary hat to you, OP. In a different thread I'd created, I had tried to explore the downsides of playing a pure EV game, in my case in the context of a specific type of scenario where you are raised all-in in a tournament while you have an average or slightly above average stack with an edge, and I was taking the position that it is largely better to fold in that spot due to the fact that if you do lose, no matter how much an off chance that event would be, you're out of the tournament when, if you just walk away, you still have plenty of chips to work with to build gradually. My arguments to this effect were...less than ironclad.

Clearly, anything I can do, you can do better.
 
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