Trouble moving up in stakes

This is going to seem very silly to some people...And I feel very foolish that this is an issue for me.

I'm a bankroll nit and I don't know how to shake it. I'm sitting on a $280 BR on PokerStars, but I find myself constantly playing 2nl and $2 or less MTTs/SNGs. My BRM plan is as follows:

-30 buy-ins for ring games @ 100BBs
-30 buy-ins for SNGs
-50 buy-ins for MTSNGs and MTTs

So, its clear that I'm pretty much rolled for 5nl, $9 SNGs, and $5 MTTs but for some reason I cannot bring myself to play at these stakes. Even though I am over-rolled for the micro-stakes and properly rolled for higher stakes, I feel so uncomfortable. I don't know if Im scared of losing money or if I expect that I'll do really bad and I don't trust myself to play higher stakes. Maybe its just very hard for me to move out of my comfort zone since I've been playing micro-limit for the longest time. I know my confidence in my game is very low, which is one of the reasons why I try to stay as low as possible-thats something I have to fix.

I have no problem playing these small stakes, but would like to be able to build a bigger bankroll and play higher stakes. Im not comparing myself to other players, but its a bit frustrating, sometimes, seeing other members moving up in stakes/build BRs at a nice rate while I feel like Im stuck in the same place.

I don't want to think that I'm only "good" enough to play micro-limits, but if thats all I am good for I should get used to it.

So, how would one overcome this? Has anyone ever gone through this or feels similar?

I have the same trouble Philthy. After building up to a few hundred at 5nl I just cashed out and started over instead of moving up. I'm now close to moving up again but 5nl $2 tourn. stakes has become my comfort level. Maybe we need to set some goals to make the transition. Obv. we could both be beating 25nl and $5-10 MTTs if we were playing them...

i hope someone told you that you dont have to move up. you can play turnys you enjoy for the rest of your life and never ever play in a turny you dont want to. and who says that if you play in a higher stakes game or turny that you always have to play higher stakes. you can always play higher stakes for one turny or at a table for a little while then go back. there is no shame in taking good care of your hard earned bankrole. i dont know what you started with but be proud that it is growing. when you are ready for higher stakes you will know it and feel it.

Do you deposit at all? I tried to do this bankroll building from nothing and it took 18 months to acquire a $600.00 bankroll. In the last couple of months I started to deposit $50.00 every three weeks whether I win or lose. This was the amount I usually bet at my home game a couple of years ago. It didn't really cost me that much, but I thought if I had it in my cashier, I would not play scared with the fear of losing my bankroll. Since doing that, I have increased my winnings by being able to play a bit more aggressively at 10nl. Might be worth a try and then you can move up.

How do you personally categorize the difference between a MTSNG and a MTT?

lol i have a BR of ~$4k and when i play mtts/sngs (which is once in a blue moon) i don't like spending more than $15 or so on either so that is what like 0.37%? Like you said, it is related to comfort level...i don't like dropping $20 a pop on mtts (as personally i don't expect a reasonable return given my "skill" or lackthereof in such games) but i'm very comfortable playing nl100 cash.

I'd really encourage you to give it a go. First of all, i'd try to concentrate on a particular game type instead of playing all 3. Maybe SnGs and MTTs or ring and mtts or just ring etc. SnGs and ring at least are just such a different cup of tea that they shouldn't really be mixed (imo).

Give 10NL a shot. Give yourself like a 5 buy in cushion or something, so if you lose $50 you move down. But all the micro ring games are really soft so there is no reason you can't do well there. It is probably easier to win at nl10 than at nl2. The play is just so bizzare at those levels. But trust me when i say that there is absolutely no reason to believe that you cannot play at higher micro stakes and do well. I highly doubt if anybody could make any sort of money to start a decent bankroll at 2nl anyways...i doubt i could be a winner at 2nl lol because i'd smash my head in with frustration.

And fwiw, being a bankroll nit isn't near as harmful as being the opposite. Ultimately whatever stakes you choose to play must be within your comfort zone.

I know exactly how this feels Philthy.

More than anything else you have to know what *you* can absorb while adjusting to the play at the new level. If you start tilting even a little saying "Oh man I just lost two buyins.. that puts be back to ..." then you gotta back off fast.

The crazy part is (IMHO) not the PLAY at the table, but your own headfake. You are not used to seeing pots build as quickly...5 bets isn't .10, it's .25 and .25 feels big when you arent used to it I think.

I think once you get a few nice wins and upswings under your belt your be ready to roar! 2nl will seem silly.

BTW, here uis one odd fact you may already have considered.

05nl and 10nl have the same max buyin. If you're rolled for 5 you're technically rolled for 10.

i'M RIGHT BEHIND YOU! As soon as I get my account up a little more I'll join you at the nickel tables!

cAPS

... and me. I posted something like this a few months back.

I wonder if there is something we could do to help each other out.

Also, this ....

... sounds like a GREAT idea. This could be a solution to my problem. I haven't made a deposit in years and have committed to not ever making another one again. Maybe that's a big part of my problem. Thanks for posting this jazzaxe!!

woah, what are the chances of me reading this, straight after i just made a post about the exact same issue in the september LC thread. I also have a mental block that is preventing me from moving up to 100nl, even though im rolled by my nitty bankroll standards, its just a mental thing. I also never spend more than $5 dollars on an mtt . But thats mainly because i suck at them/don't like playing them for too long so don't mind going out after say an hour

You can try doing what I did, Philthy. I'm pretty nitty with my bankroll.

When I played $2NL I made a deal with myself. When I won and additional $20 I could take it to a higher level. If I lost $20, I'd have to play $2NL again until I made $25. Then I could take $20 of that and play a higher level again (thereby keeping a $5 profit).
Then I'd repeat the process if I kept losing at the higher level... each time keeping an additional $5 when I round it out at the $2NL.

I player a short-stack game, and skipped $5NL for $10NL. And as it turned out, when I moved up, I hit the ground running and did substantially better. So having to grind it out at $2NL again was never an issue.

Ah that is a good plan! Setting a "stoploss" max has been my way to rise in the past, but I never tried to force the extra BR boost in ala your extra $5.

It's simple genius because it doesn't make the ride less bumpy, but it will stop us from going completely flat.

Good.

cAPS

True, I dont have to move up in stakes, but I see it as a sign as improvement. I could stay at the these low limits all the time if I wanted to, but I feel like Im missing out on so much. It feels like people around me are improving and moving up a steady rate and Im stuck down here. Im not saying I'll be a better play when I move up, but I would like to think that I could improve.No, I don't. I'm on a very tight budget and wouldn't be able to. I like the idea though.They're the same thing, basically-just small differences.This is exactly how I feel. I have trouble dropping even 5% of my BR on an MTT because I feel like I will not do well on them. I keep the buy-ins small because I'm looking to minimize my losses. I've very comfortable playing $2 18-seat SNGs, but nothing higher because, again, I don't expect to do well.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I see Pithy has started another thread, wonder what he's lying about this time?

LOL. Caught me! I'll see you all at nl40K

Man up and move up! NL10 Gogogogogo!!

Blah...this thread is pretty stupid. Can we get a lock on it?

I'll stick with micro-limits. This way, I can at least keep my losses to a minimum.

I don't think it's lame... I think it's a common thought. But anyway.. You out there playing?

Not really playing...just throwing money away.

There is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to move up. Why not look at this as a new beginning where you can make new goals etc. instead of an inevitable disaster.

Ultimately, if you can't eventually move up past 2nl, you are never going to make any money off of poker, and, therefore, poker will simply be a hobby. By this logic, it doesn't really matter if you lose some money giving nl5/10 a shot, because you'll only need a bankroll that can sustain your micro games (aka. not very much). Therefore, you should give moving up a real shot. Let yourself have a $50 cushion or something before you consider it a failure.

You keep your gains to a minimum too. That said I play alot of lower limits online lately...

I moved up to 3 dollar games before I was ready and was winning a lot at 1st but then started to lose. So I decided to be mega conservative and get 100 buy ins before I move to 3$ games again.

Im nearly there but im gonna work on the win a few dollar games to get a little cushion over my 100 buy ins then move up untill I start losing then move down again for a bit if I do. This way Im protecting my bankroll if I am not ready.

Oh I play 18 man sngs and am a total nit so we may differ somewhat.

i have the same problem, ithink its about confidence mostly and increase of the level of players when u increase the stake

IMHO the difference in play quality on pokerstars between 02nl and 10nl is fairly negligible.

It is just about getting used to building pots faster and wider swings. Getting your head around this is "deceptively simple".

Another thing that has helped me bridge a limit transition is forcing myself to think in BETS rather than an amount.

cAPS

I don't know where you prefer to play, but, I think almost all sites have a filter.....filter out the micro and low stake games.

Or, continue to play them...as long as you're having fun.

If on the other hand you're trying to make a living then you're doing yourself a disservice, and you NEED to move up. Then of course..poker becomes a job. Wish I were good enough to make poker my job.

Heh, maybe you're not reading your own thread any more Phil, but,

I don't think that there's anything wrong with playing where you're most comfortable. At some point the discomfort/ambition will outweigh the comfort with the playing situation.

But at the same time, I would have suggested what someone else has mentioned: take 2 buyins, designate that as money for the new level and play at the new level until those 2 buyins are gone.

Philthy, I completely understand where you are at. I moved up from .05/.10 NLHE to .10/.25 because others were seemingly moving up due to their successes. I became impatient and frustrated. I also paid no attention to BR. Even though I did well at the .10/.25 limits, my gut feeling was that I was playing above my means.

I learned all I could about bankroll management and quickly discovered, I was playing unprotected so my gut was right. Now I listen to my instincts and I've found that my first impressions or feelings are usually correct. I believe I've found a good balance between my new found bankroll nit behavior and following my instincts.

I've created a "move up" plan based on BR management which fits my playing style (tight aggressive). Now I feel much more comfortable playing and not worried about loosing my buy-in b/c my BR can handle the ups and downs.

btw - I did drop back to .05/.10 ring games. Mentally, I know that I can drop back just as easy as I can move up. This thought process has lessened my frustrations and impatience. Also, it does NOT matter how others are performing with their BR. Just b/c others are moving up doesn't mean they are doing it for the right reasons or doing well. Their success could also be an illusion. Heaven forbid.....they could be lying too :-) Bottom line: I've learned other people's BR doesn't matter. My recommendation to you is: Know your playing style, follow your BR management, continue to do things to improve (play well, books, Cardschat forums) and trust your instincts. That's is about all you can do. Good Luck

MTSNG's start when preset # of players register
MTT's start at a preset time, regardless of # of players registered

Moving up in limits can be a difficult process if you are not confident in your playing ability and when you are just not mentally ready to move up. If I were you, I would move up and start trying out the tables a little bit and try to remember to play the same way you did (the way you won the money). Once you start consistently winning pots and such, you will gain enough confidence to stay at that level and make good money .

lol sounds exactly like me...but I think IM worse..

I got a bankroll of $500 and still feel really uncomfy playing the $3.40s sngs at pokerstars..its just because if I lose 5 buy-ins (which happens) I just lost over $15 and those $15 arent easy to get at micro stakes! ..so I play .02/.05 NL with over 100 buy-ins and still dont think im ready to play .05/.10 yet (Im sure I would dominate this level but not ready for its variance) ..but decided when I hit around maybe $600 Ill move up..

I also remember when my bankroll was around $200-$300 ..I was stuck there for so long and couldnt seem to move up..I found out that I was moving around too much from ring games, sngs, and mtts...I sucked so bad at MTTs just cause I would always bust out early to bad players when my QQs and KKs get busted with A5o so I decided to just not play but I the only reason I played so much MTTs was just to get a big boost in my BR so I can play ring games comfortably ..Then I finally started to focus on just ring games and turbo sngs and slowly built it up...

The lower stakes we play the lower risk we take with our BR and vice versa ..I feel safer with just grinding 2/5nl until I get close to 100 buy-ins for .10 nl..lol

Whaaaaaaat? $15 out of $500 are 3%. That's absolutely nothing. It's negligible. Some of you guys really need to start thinking in relative terms, not in absolute terms. That's the only way to consistently move up without being on scared money all the time.

It is silly, could you imagine wanting to play live poker for nickels? I wouldn't want to play less than .50/1 so what the hell am I doing
I wouldn't even consider playing for pennies if Pokerstars didn't offer it. Wy worst downswings are 10-12 buyins sng/mtt and 5-6 ring, so I'm giving way too much cushion. I just slapped my self twice, I'm going to start playing poker.

I just slapped you a couple times too. This is how we play poker? I kinda like it!

forget the tourneys and concentrate on cash games. Steady money and your overall game will improve.

I've never really been into cash games, but I'm leaning towards playing them more.

I'm properly rolled for 5nl (100BB buy-in) so, I'll probably start with that. I think playing 2nl with 130+ 100BB buy-ins is just a bit too nitty. I could max buy-in for $5, but I'm doing that, I might as well play 5nl.

I'll continue to play tournaments as well, but will stick with the smaller buy-ins. I'll play any MTT/MTSNG for $1 or less so I can focus most of my BR on 5nl and occasionally 2nl. I'll also focus majority of my time on ring games, maybe 80% ring and 20% on MTTs.

Just try a few bigger buy-in ring/MTT/SNG the play at doesnt change that much its still the micros and i know u can beat the 6$ sng and 10NL just like the 1$ and 2NL.