Trash talking - is it a good `tool`?

^^

This

Possibly Stu. However, some football/ soccer players are very aggressive and sometimes they are booked and sent off for this. Their coach, however, does not say much because what makes them bad also makes them good

All good points. But like anything in poker, I would guess u need more than just a TAG game? Also, what I`m saying above is not only card dependant, it is also position & player dependant.

I have found the "see you muppets later" or even a simple "Well, here goes, gg guys" will get more people to fold marginal hands, or at least, I feel more comfortable saying this then pushing with hands myself. But tbh, I don`t have any stats to prove this as I don`t see what they have folded.

Lets face it, very few people want to be made to look stupid?

Do they use trash talking as a strategy or do they rely more on what is traditionally called skill?

If you are on about the football analogy?

The point I was making was, an aggressive soccer play obviously has an amount of soccer skill. However, they `made it` in soccer because they also have an aggressive style. If they lose there aggressive style they won`t be 1/2 the player they were.

So I`m suggesting that if you are a player who uses the table talk I am suggesting, take that away from some players and they won`t be as good.

I doubt any player in the World is not effected by someone like Tony G.

A bit off subject, but the general thought pattern follows through. Some people play the `72` game where if u win a pot with 72 either by a bluff or you hit the flop, whatever, u win some kind of bonus off the other players (this is agreed in advance)

So people will make made moves with the worst hand in poker.

I am suggesting that sometimes people will get hacked off with the table mouth and sometimes play hands they probably should not to either prove a point or to get back at the mouth.

I dont think that your football example was a step in the right direction. What you describe here is 100% Tilt! As someone who has played organized team sports all of my life I can say for certain that trash talk / unsportsmanlike conduct in sports like football, soccer, baseball, ect are usually come from lack of discipline. It is Not aggressiveness, skill, or desire to be the best. Plain and simple when people let their mouths or let themselves get out of hand in the heat of the moment it is a sure sign of lack of discipline and inability to channel their emotions! This is exhibited greatly when you see the end of a blowout game?

Please do not associate this type of behavior in team sports as some type of indicator of skill or heart. To do so would be a great injustice to the others who play with discipline and control themselves while being successful.

Back to if trash talk could be a profitable in Poker......

One way to evaluate trash talk is by the possible outcomes of talking trash.
What are the possible outcomes of talking trash (assume all things the same)
Our Play Villain Play Outcome
Better Worse Positive
Better Better Negative
Better Same Neutral
Same Worse Positive
Same Same Neutral
Same Better Negative
Worse Worse Neutral
Worse Same Negative
Worse Better Negative

If we play Better or play the same game our expected outcome against an opponent is 1 positive, 1 negative, and 1 Neutral = Neutral

If we play worse we have the same and two negative expectations = Negative

Looking at it overall we have 2 positive expectations, 3 Neutral, and 4 negative = Negative

So looking at it this way it looks like it is either neutral or slightly negative. But this for sure is not the entire story so this is not to say for certain trash talk has a negative expected outcome.

Let us say hypothetically you can without a doubt play better or the same while trash talking. (You can only for certain control and measure your actions). Your expectation can then be positive about 1/3 of the time, another 1/3 it is likely to get you a negative result with the last 1/3 to be neutral. Overall not very convincing even after you eliminate your worst play.

I think another effective way to evaluate trash talk effectiveness would be in the same way we should evaluate the effectiveness of using physical tells at the table to make decisions. Here is how I think it should be worded:

"Trash talk is only useful when it causes your opponent to make the wrong decision when they otherwise would have made the right one."

Also, we need to clarify that for our opponent to make a “wrong decision”, this does not signify putting them on tilt necessarily, but that our trash talk influenced them to make a call/bet/fold that that they normally would not have made that would have been +EV for them.

This would require that our opponents would:
1) Understand what the right play is and 2) would have made the right play had we not intervened

So what this assumption and definition of trash talk as being effective we are saying that we need to be in a scenario that we are playing against a good player

Once you throw in these stipulations of being against a good player I think we can eliminate at least 75-90% of the field out there (present article writer included).

Not only do we though need to be against a good player who knows and understands correct play but we need to be able to manipulate his play and get him off of his A-Game. So for sake of argument take out the top 5% as they are not susceptible to trash talk and take out the bottom 75% so we are left with at best 20% (more likely 10% as bottom 80% does not know how to play correctly all the time and top 10% wont let you bother them).

Let us hypothetically say that you are really, really good and you can cut out the possibility that you will play worse by trash talking and the possibility that your opponent will get better. That still only leaves you with a rate of 50% of having any positive effect over only 20-10% of poker players….

Overall this leads me to the conclusion that while yes trash talk could be profitable, but that you would see bigger gains focusing your energy in other areas of your game.

I see the trash talkers fall much more than the victims of the trash talkers. Some trash talkers can be really really inappropriate too, no reason for some of the things I hear.

I try to avoid it...but when I get a crybaby who starts talking sh*t to me after I win a hand off of them I tend to go off

It always seems that there's a "Pro" playing micro stakes who acts like they know the game better than you so they start with the DONKEY CLAIMS which always makes me laugh.....if you're such a superstar/pro then what are you doing playing micro-stakes champ?

I do find trash talk to get to me at certain times, but this of course goes both ways....

Example;
Last night I was playing a $3 regular 9-seat SnG and early on I limped into a hand w/4-10 CLUBS and flopped a flush draw so I called the next bet which was (I believe) 40, and the next bet at 70 so I went for it and called with a 3rd player calling as well....I caught another club on the river....I had the bettor pegged for holding a straight so when he went all-in I took the chance and called...the other player before me did not call.....when I took the pot the player who folded started crying and whining calling me a DONK and all, and I always find this as a case of sour grapes.

I took a chance here, and the price to call wasn't high at all....they should not have let me limp into the hand and the bets should have been stronger because I would have folded and I would not try to chase it if either one did play it aggressive....The fact that I bet a total of 110 in chips to see the turn and river wasn't a donk move at al, in my opinion

He couldn't get over it and I proceeded to keep up with his trash talk and wound up as the solid chip leader throughout the game right up until the remaining last 3 players into the money along with Crybaby and another player who no held the most chips between us....when crybaby busted in 3rd place(I wish it was me who knocked him out, but it wasn't) I sent him my "utmost gratitude" and finished the game placing 2nd after 11 more hands....I knew I was getting under his skin because up until the final-3 players he stayed away from the majority of hands I was in and played extremely tight...earlier on he was playing too many hands and trying to be aggressive

A week earlier I had some crazy lady making all these racial comments when I won a sizable pot by flopping a straight(3-7) she was calling me a donk because I called when she had the top pair...It didn't make sense what she was saying....She started sounding off with "your momma" comments like a damn 3rd grader and used the "N" word a few times claiming I must be one since I'm from New York along with all this other nonsense I just kept popping off right back at her and entertained the rest of the table as we went along.....I've played her since and she's kept her mouth shut, for now

I thought of reporting her simply because the racial comments were way off base (especially when all poker sites have people of different race/nationalitiy/religion), but I myself didn't want to come off like a rat so I let it go because I don't want the BS drama either, and she's the one who needed to get over it

If you want to trash talk at least be witty and smart about it...don't make yourself look ignorant, racist, or small-minded because it will reveal just how unintelligent you really may be to the other players who really don't want this BS at the table anyway

If you lose just suck it up...it's part of the game...we've all lost some great hands due to the usual river magic and outright luck for the opponent, and you'll just end up looking like you're a cheap, whining crybaby who shouldn't be playing the game in the first place

For what it's worth...this is my two cents on this thread/subject

Good Luck out there

I turn table chat off, 100% of the time, so you can mouth off all ya like, it wont have any effect on me, but you will lose focus and start making mistakes and that is only good for your opponents.
Please, keep up the good work.

In my opinion I dont have respect for people who resort to less then favorable means to win. I don't know a single poker player that actually cashes on a regular basis that plays what I think is dirty. I feel if you are trying so hard to provoke others emotions its almost impossible that you are not doing the same to yourself. Who wants to live life on that emotional roller coaster? I sure don't. The game already requires much mental stability. Playing with that stratagy "TOOL" would just be exausting. Who want to make a living by bringing down others? not me. Not saying I am perfect.. I have snapped before, and all it does it make ME feel bad. I don't know about anyone else, but I have a conscience! Did I spell that right? Conscience? lol

The only successful trash talker I've seen is Tony G. Usually the rest just failure and are trash talking because they're getting upset at how the game is going and in general, they just suck at poker at lot of the time.

AMEN!

Players still use the chat box at tables?


...................................o_O

IMO, trash talking is rarely good business. If you anger the other player, he might leave. If you point out how bad the player is, he will either start to play much better or leave. The only possible good thing to come from trash talk would be if you tilt a good player, but how can you ever really know that you've tilted him? It might just make him scarier, maybe he will slow roll you or do something weird. Better to just leave him alone and pick on the donks while also being nice to them and make the experience of dumping money to you a nice one that maybe they will want to repeat. Also, you don't want to look like a jerk.

Isn't poker based on profiting by bring down others? It's an eat or be eaten environment, IMO. I do agree that it is best to minimize the emotional rollercoaster that is poker, and trying to provoke others certainly would not help one keep his or herself's emotions in check.

All good points...and I agree

I need to learn to ignore it more...I do have a sense of humor over someone whining over one single hand in an SnG, and I guess that's why I throw it it back sometimes

5 years ago the chat would stay off and I would just stick to my game... It's time to go back and focus on my numbers and hands

Wow, sick bump of this thread..lmao.

I actually did get involved in chat a couple of time over the last 50k hands. I dont turn chat off cause I ignore it. But I also see if someone chats and it is a very good tell a lot of times. Like when 2(3-4) people start having conversations, maybe about another player, how bad they are etc, or if one becomes the "teacher" it all gives me info on their mindset. I had a guy call my c/shove pocket AA with A flop he had SC and 1 flush card on the flop and NOTHING ELSE,. no SD, so pair.... wow. He runner runners the flush. Bink GG. I made a note and was truly happy he played poker. He said sorry, and said how he knows he is a donk and did not deserve that win. I chatted back, "np, wp".

Another table, a reg I face a lot, tried to all in bluff me off a hand - and he played it real bad as well, I was obv. not going anywhere - and when I had his entire stack, he called me an idiot and pretty much told me to **** off, all in Spanish. Since I play him a lot, i chatted back"Is that Spanish for "I suck at poker?"" Now, I rarely do this, but want him to keep trying to stupidly agro bluff me, He left the table one hand after that. lol. I have played him a lot since, and now am a bit more able to bluff him off a pot IP, he was a lot more agro with 3 bets b4. Maybe he just has a bad run, who knows.

In any case, I have chat on since players stabs at me amuse me if I notice at all, and I get a small tidbit of info now and then. But I believe chatting while playing is in 99.9999% of all cases a waste of time, unless it is to say hi to a player you may know or something.


And even then, probably just dont.

When i was talking about bringing down others i was not talking in the sense of winning there chips I was talking about the people who think they have to play nasty, be crude and get people on tilt to get there chips and then feel proud of what they have dont to the other person in order for them to make a living. Make sense? Hard to expain what I mean I dont think written explination is my strong suit lol. I just mean I chose to play in the most gracious way possible and I understand that most people that are playing are there more to have a good time than make a living at it and I believe they are entitled to do that without others.. "Bringing them down"

My only experience of watching Tony G was when he played Isildur1 in one of the first Isildur Challenges on Stars. All his chat did was tilt himself. He would say how good he was, then call Isildur a donk, then get really angry, then try to be nice, when he won a big hand he would get all cocky like he was the best player in the world, when he finally lost he went on a long rant about how he is a joke and should never play poker again and he only has gotten to where he is now because he started at the beginning of the poker boom. It was just ridiculous to see how he was using chat. He was giving away so much information. The chat for Tony G is like a heartbeat monitor, you know what his emotion is at each moment. I can't imagine playing on a regular basis on that kind of emotional rollercoaster. Meanwhile, Isildur1 barely said anything as he pounded Tony G into the felt. It seemed like Isildur just broke Tony G by just being a pro and not using chat, while having Tony G give away so much info for Isildur to exploit.

tldr version, Tony G sucks.

This is something I agree with very much...It's good to know who is who mentally.

Crybabies like this tend to lean towards tilt and make mistakes in these situations



Hope you're doing well, Fletch

Hey Eddie,

yea doing pretty good, thanks. I hope you are as well!!!

trash talking is stupid...