thoughts

hello,


how about that ride in?



i spent a few moments with my cursor on top of the icon for a scrabble app to kill some late saturday night time with some semi-involved 4 minute scrabble games vs. west coast ready for sleep housewives, but decided to share some wisdom with CC that's been stewing in my mind for a while. i'll warn you now that a lot of this is going to come off as drunken stream of consciousness "standard vanquish musings", but i think there's value to be here somewhere, so let's follow through with it anyways (better than you reading the next "Which female poker pro do you think has the shapeliest knockers?" thread).



i) there is a general lack of "winning" culture at CC:


this subsection isn't intended to criticize or ostracize anyone for the way they approach poker. however, i'd like to voice my disappointment at a certain level of underperformance i'm seeing among CC members in whom i see true potential. it seems like people are relatively okay with being breakeven microstakes players. at the same time, the same people seem to be quite dedicated to poker, and seem to have a genuine interest in continuing to play the game. a sweat here and there, a half-assed HH discussion here and there, relative involvement in various CC chat threads, and generally a reasonable amount of time dedicated to CC. the result? nothing to show for it. yeah, alright, you withdrew $200 in the last 3 months to pay for a new sound system for your car. alright, you took $300 to your nearest live game and quadrupled it when you got it all in with AA vs. 72 vs 72 vs 72 and flopped the ole A-ball.

i find this level of involvement vs. level of reward comparable to being a boring programming drone in an about-to-blow-up startup company in a sexy industry. sure, you show up to the monthly office party poker and you're equipped with the occasional knee-slapper for the 10:00am water-cooler meetup, but are you really flourishing?


online poker is an industry that contains things you'd skullbash your grandmother to probably ever see again, especially if you're young and ambitious (i have enough faith in CC for there to be a few more ambitious people than those i can immediately name).

a) you can meet fun, hilarious, awesome, determined, successful people that you can network with. why aren't you actively pursuing this? (disclaimer: i know many at CC do this and try to pursue relationships, a) is mostly dedicated to those that aren't doing this enough)

b) you can make lots of money from your laptop, WITHOUT EVER HAVING TO LEAVE YOUR HOUSE. you can hold your aspergers in one hand and grasp success by the throat in the other hand. this takes commitment and hard work, but frankly, it is nowhere near as hard as trying to pursue a career in something like computer programming where everyone is 5000% smarter on average and market inefficiencies are virtually impossible to find unless you're some sort of god.

c) this is a limited time opportunity! this isn't really that big of a point, but its worth mentioning. online poker hasn't been around for that long, and won't be around for that much longer. take advantage of the opportunity you have to make a whole sack of cash thru your laptop by working hard! c'mon. you know it's better than sitting around watching 16 & pregnant or whatever it is you'd be doing otherwise



ii) learn to balance elements in your life, with poker included in that mix:


i'm gonna keep this one relatively short because otherwise it turns into a blog post, but i'll be happy to offer additional commentary if asked.

basically,

it's not that hard to balance things in your life to include poker, education, exercise, dating life, social life, alcoholism, jersey shore addiction, w/e else, etc.. you may think it is (lol i dont have time to go to school full time AND learn to beat 25nl!!!), but in fact, you're wrong. take a look around and notice how many people are able to get away with working 50 hrs a week, going to class in the evenings, and raising three kids while dealing with their bitch wife. do you think they're extremely skilled at life, or do you think maybe you might just be the one that's lazy and hasn't tried living at 80% "hard-work" mode (let alone 20% hard-work mode lol)? i was able to grind out a bachelors degree while playing a fair amount of small-midstakes poker to get me by, while also dealing with having to drink 5-6 nights a week due to having alcoholic friends. trust me, you (most likely) HAVE the time to pursue getting better at poker. if you really, really don't think so, hats will be tipped to you ITT anyways.




c) Act as if:

quote from boiler room:

"There's an important phrase that we use here, and think it's time that you all learned it. Act as if. You understand what that means? Act as if you are the ****ing President of this firm. Act as if you got a 9" **** (word for weener). Okay? Act as if."



One of the major issues that i have with some people here is that you guys don't have enough swagger lol, at least when it comes to poker. i won't get into berate mode, but frankly it's important to sack up and accept that you actually do have the potential to become good at poker (or at least good enough to make enough money to play WSOP events or 2/4 NLHE or w/e thing that's normally enough to be worshipped by peers here), and you actually CAN become successful at it if you pursue it.


act as if you've been coached before, that you've played higher stakes than you've ever played before. of course, not to say you should abandon BRM and make reckless plays at stakes 10x higher than you've ever played, but at the same time, don't become FX129958 and whine about how moving up sucks because it takes 200k hands for you to stop losing and start winning. grab your balls and tell yourself you're capable of winning money at higher stakes. if you can't? well ****, you're still a smart mother****er, and you're damn smarter enough to improve your game to at least take shots at those stakes. there are coaches available for cheap, and advice on this site often comes free (see HA forum). people like myself, chuck, marginal, etc. are available to help with a lot of stuff, and we really want to see more people come up in the ranks.

it's embarassing that other forums (won't drop names) have people that are raking it in and spending it on crack and the finest of hookers, while people on CC are afraid of moving up to 2 cent 5 cent because they're worried that they won't be able to 3b KK profitably anymore. c'mon! i know people that drool out the right side of their mouths and they can beat 100nl, you guys HAVE to believe you can do it too.




seriously, it makes me sad (or maybe it's the fact that i've had 11 beers tonight that's making me sad) that there are so few people here that seem to have the ambition and dedication to at least commit to making some reasonable money at poker. i bet half of you guys that play 10nl could beat 100nl if you sunk your teeth into the game a bit more. you know there are resources here for you. i know that black friday made things difficult etc, but for the euros that's no excuse, and for the americanos, merge has good traffic, great RB, and plenty of games running.



there really is no excuse for some of you guys not being successful poker players yet. the mopey culture of the monthly chat thread being filled with 95% posts that say "spam spam " and not anyone actually getting anything done needs to end.


if i don't see more of an effort from posters who obviously put in time in discussing/playing poker in actually legitimately improving their games, my disappointment will lead me to very very bad things













another drunken rant brought to you by the makers of vanquish

On my way to a gig, so cant do anything but glance, but subscribing cause at first glance there seems to be some interesting content here. Stuff that is worth thinking about imo.

Post of the year (non Black Friday division). Lot of truth in what you wrote there.

No idea what to say, just worked a nightshift and brain is frazzled, but I kinda get what you're saying vanq., I guess. I'll bookmark this and come back to it later.

I understand. The culture at CC regarding poker is flawed atm (strange I can say that on a poker website). I know I'm someone who is half assing with poker atm and can do more and much better. I like this, it's made me think.

Agree PMI

Vanq. Even though this post is aimed at the micro guys. I am in that boat. I have half assed/ made half attempts at this for way too long. Like if i actually put in volume, I might be playing higher than where Im at and rubbing more money on my titties. I am just way to content, playing like 5 to 10k hands at 100 and 200plo. Sure I'm winning but I'm just not motivated to sit and put in a 6 hour session like I was doing a few years ago. Maybe It is because I have been working full time and studying in the evenings but I should be doing more.

Very good post.

OK, did my gig. It was really good,and the point I am at in my musical life as well as my poker life made your post all the more inspiring Vanq. I now had time to read it and, yea, good post.

Not much to say except I see myself in the people you wrote this for, although I was prolly not in the forefront of your mind when writing. I am actually at a crossroads in my life in all respects, and poker is a major topic in my daily routine. SO thanks for this. Time to move ahead. I know I am one who likes to read, study, post, drink and talk a lot about moving ahead while enjoying the relative safety of staying pretty much where I am at.

I view your post as a challenge.

And I accept.

yep, fd pretty much said it all to which I agree with.
I think there are a lot more recreational players(of which I am one) here at CC than maybe some other poker forums, people who just enjoy playing, and are not too bothered about moving up, we just wanna play.
I, personally, have been dicking around at super-micro for too long when I should be making myself work harder and pushing myself harder to play higher. The money's there, just not the motivation.
Nice post Vanq.

How about a 'poker goals for 2011' thread where we set ourselves realisitic goals in poker, and spend the year trying to obtain them?

You da man Vanq. Legendary as always.... I obv fall in the this category you describe!

Well said Vanq! Really appreciate your thoughts here; as wellas I hope others will take this as a kick in the ass to get rockin.

I came to CC in early August so about 4.5 months ago, met some great ppl and improved my game in this time more than in the previous several years of being a casual, semi-serious player. I'm now beating $10nl, over 16k hands, and will be looking to move up again hopefully in January. This is just an example that I wanted to share to further emphasize what you are saying.

and btw many of the cash group will confirm how terrible i was when i first came here, not that I am anything great atm, but the point here is to sink "your teeth" into this goal of using the tools we have available and improving.

Several of us are in daily skype study group, and I know I fall into the goofball-spam in cash thread (well- the LC lolz one anyway). I use it as a bit of a venting spot tbh, beause cash is so challenging, and often times just uber frustrating.

Several of the "High content" posters that I talk w/ regularly are of mind to say: whats the point in posting higher content; when they post high content, the person they are trying to help just argues and wants to defend themselves as being pro, if only villains would stop getting so lucky (lol). I guess after a year(s) of that sort of thing giving up is understandable.

SO for those like myself who are truly adament about becoming better and learning as much as possible, please "high (quality) content" ppl keep at it!

Hope Vanq's thread, and initial post motivates us all to stretch ourselves- and not be content w/ the status quo.

yes yes yes yes yes

very good post and i do agree when i evaluate my game. being kind of new to poker i feel i need to break out and move up staks but on the flip side when i first started playing i didntrealize the type of money poker is about. when i play cash at the micros a winning and losing session is almost non existant. i dont mult table nd really dont want too but i want to play one table higher stakes but........ ok damnit i do question myself and guess i should just go do it. i sit around dreaming bout playing more than iplay. im also not a grinder mind, i get tired of playing after a few hours and think if im playing i should make it worthwhile if i do good or make it hurt if i dont which im sure will really make take my game more serious so maybe i should, see now im hyped iwant to go big now and ill be hyped and think and think and think log in then what do i do, hey a freeroll is starting in five minutes. as isaid before i dont mind taking a few hundred to the cardroom and if i run bad,i chalk it up as a bad day but i get mad for some reason when i lose money online, half is the unknown, of if implaying people or were targeted by people cause their software starts flashing neon lights if i log on. i do know one thing id like to play bigger stakes on one table than running fifty tables at micros.....right i one table the micros and think wow i stead of winning four dollars i could of won forty or four hundred but of course the opposite could happen. but i have goals damnit im just not sure what they are

see just by reading the posts in this thread im just fn slack

Wow, actually a great post.

I hope i am one of these guys you were talking about cause it really sums up my situation right now.

I don't put in enough volume and stay content with playing like <15k hands a month, often blaming it on getting lots of work at uni or whatever.

Seriously ffs, i see people on another popular forum making 1-2k every month at 25nl, just because they put more time in than me. They arent even especially good players (obviously) but atleast they arent content with chilling out and playing 10k hands a month and making a couple of hundred dollars.

I need to sort this out. I worked really hard when i was at 2,5,10nl just to even beat the game, now im finding it pretty beatable i've just went in to relax mode :/

cheers vanq.

guilty

Vanq comes across as a joker and doesnt post much general poker content IMO or any monthly graphs/blogs etc but I guess he's a grinder and hard worker behind the scenes and is obviously a very good player.

I can personally relate to some of things said, lazy, having potential, half assed HH discussions and also realise this is a sick opportunity which is why I have tried to grab my balls and a bunch of others who are in the skype CC group who are wanting to improve so we can do so together with vid reviews and discussing hands better on skype and I think we would all degree the content has improved massively.

Iv also seen first hand these people who are ****ing raking it in, people who are friends from elsewhere making 15k months, 20k days ffs so it is possible to be done.

shame I dont have your skype vanq, sad face!

What about those of us who ARE the presidents and HAVE 9" ****s?

You'll get your membership card in the mail in 6-8 weeks

Oh boy.

I am in a recording session so I can't do it now but I have some opinions on this and it is liable to come across a little nasty... but I don't really care so I am going to type it all later once we've mixed the tracks.

I laughed....loudly. If this is what I can expect here at CC then I'm all in. Awesome post and thanks for the laughs. Great stuff!

Perhaps some of the older players who became winning players just got tired of seeing the same new guys with the same questions over and over so stopped posting. If they are making money and moving up the ladder they may not feel that CC has anything to offer anymore.

I joined about the same time as Tarron and I have changed dramatically. When I first joined I thought "what does position matter? the cards are the cards, right?" and other crap like that. OK PLO player but sucked at Hold'em. Now I think totally different than I did but I don't play right now online. I know I will again but I am still in learning mode. Trying to get to that "zen" place when playing.

First of all... I think your post has merit. These are good points and the general idea of it is good for CC. I think there is much wasted potential , and I think that's what you are addressing here. Please do not take the following comments too personally. I like you.

I don't think I totally line up with your ideal of what a dedicated poker player should look like, and to be perfectly honest I don't give a ****.

This is because I do not play poker to try to impress you or anyone else. I play poker for myself, to my own standard, for my own reasons, and my own way. I have the constant pleasure of realizing the game is deeper than I thought it was last month and have had that realization many many times. Enough to know I'm not done yet.

Now I realize arrogance won't make me a better player, and that is why I visit the website occasionally. Scattered through the millions of "Aces always lose", "AK is a drawing hand", "How should you play Jacks" threads are occasionally little gems of wisdom that make me see something new about the game and make me a better player.

This usually happens in the analysis forums.

LOL. That is at the heart of one of the reasons I don't participate that much.

I posted a hand in there last month just as a joke to myself. A sort of subtle jibe. "Look I don't mean to get in the way of you guys talking about who makes more money playing HU PLO, but I thought I'd see if anyone is interested in a poker hand I found interesting where I folded a set on the flop."

You, Vanq, had a conversation with me about the hand. It felt good. But it was like two people carrying umbrellas on a ski slope.

The monthly cash thread is a giant pile of self referential, cliquish nonsense. And I don't really care... it's just not me. It has almost nothing to do with poker unless you count posturing and pretending you are a successful cash player as poker.

Yeah, I know.. I am good at making friends.

But that's just it. I would rather be quiet, honest, or gone. In that descending order.

So I stay quiet out of respect.

Still, It's like a dick measuring contest where we don't actually measure our dicks but just show each other our huge rulers.

Even after black Friday I play a lot of poker. My live playing has gone up quite a bit, and I have developed an interest in tourneys though I still play cash at home games etc.

Everything I do I do my own way. It might be detrimental, but it's just the way I am. The way I see it if you learn by process oriented formulas you are not a genius, you are a sheep. The whole point of the nine dots is to erase them in the end.

My form is I have no form. And yeah Bruce Lee is cool and shit.

I might not have a blog, post graphs, goals, or even multi table online games. But I eat sleep and breathe poker. I don't see any level of game as unlegit. I love when I am playing in a $200 freroll and some jackass who is unable to see why he has made a series of bad plays says "If we all payed $500 to play this I'd be winning... you'd see". And I love the guy playing $5/10 who plays the same game as he does in the freroll.

I have nothing against getting better... I am trying to do that every day.

Anyway... good post. I just have a little different perspective.... thought I'd share it for a change.

-my standard for being a dedicated poker player is pretty high, but like, imo it's still better to actually run a lot and adjust your diet and sleeping accordingly if you're into running, as oppose to saying "i love running but i do it my own way and not for anyone else" and then running around your house 3 times twice a week and spending the rest of the time on the couch

-the cash thread is just a community thread. it's not even that bad imo, people are generally refraining from posting beats or whining or w/e, and there's some semblance of valuable discussion going on ( i think we can build on this). it's the place you should go if you have questions or w/e because its probably the most likely place to get a good response (this speaks less to the awesomeness of the monthly thread and more to how crappy a lot of HA threads turn out. seriously, at least we don't have stubborn arguments with stu-ungar in which he ends up saying "I"M NOT POSTING ANYMORE ABOUT THIS" after he gets owned every other day). so it's somewhat fixable. it'll take work tho



-we can help you with live poker. the first step is admitting that you have a problem. lol jk but srsly can you believe that there are live pros who have made a living for many years thru live poker and are actually fish on heaters? that boggles my mind

Great post Vanq... some good points
some questions? Are you fininshed at Mcgill?
Was the 11 beers Canadian or Anerican?

yea all done w/ mcgill, back in states now

beers were american (dogfish head 60 minute ipa, highly recommend)

You are right, basically.

I still come to CC almost every day largely for the social aspects and just to see what`s going on, but I am increasingly visiting another forum to talk seriously about poker with other people who are at my level and interested in the kinds of questions that interest me.

Some of us will move on and outgrow this place, but I don`t think that necessarily means that CC has failed us. It is a site largely aimed at beginners and recreational players, and it`s very good at that. There is no point in hanging out at KFC if one wants to eat steak.

Big fan of that beer, and I am a big fan of hops in general, but 11 of those might be a little much for hoppiness.

I get that. And that is also a great deal of my problem. I am not really part of that community. I don't think I really fit in to it very well. So I am not entirely comfortable participating in it.

This doesn't make me feel like a failure at poker, life or anything else though. Just that I know who I am and where I fit.

Funny. I just came in from my quick little 3 mile run. I am more of a cyclist though. I want to run more but it just makes my feet, hips and back so mad.

I would like to know what your standard for real poker is then. What would you like to see me doing to be less of a couch potato. I am not saying I will do it, I just want to know.

The reason I am not likely to do it is I am extremely focused on running my small business. It's not so much a time thing as it is a money thing. We've hit a bit of a slow time and I just don't have an extra $500 I can send to a poker site where I am as likely to lose it to the DOJ. I don't see what remains as online poker in the US as being safe enough for me to risk that at the moment.

If that means I have no "swagger" in your eyes... well so be it. I don't mind if you see me as something I am not really. Chances are slim to none we ever meet.

OK. I have more than one really. I admit it.

well, being realistic is more important than anything else when you're evaluating your poker situation, and it seems that you're doing that for the most part.


if you're focusing on your business or raising a baby or w/e, then there's no reason for you to force yourself to play poker if you don't have the time (in both of these scenarios, you most likely don't legitimately have the time). the main point of this thread was to get people to evaluate their specific situation more realistically and ask themselves if time/whatever is truly an issue, or if they're just being lazy.


i have a hunch that a lot of people here are being lazy when it comes to poker and it's disappointing to see that. however that doesn't mean everyone should be playing 50k+ hands a month, especially if time/money are a legitimate issue. it's important to think about. the US player situation is definitely riskier and i don't expect everyone to be risk averse enough to want to play on a site that allows US players.


the biggest disappointment comes from seeing people wasting their potential. each person's situation is different though, and it's important that others are as realistic about their goals/expectations as you.

Well I am doing both. Though my babies are 9 and 5 now.

But I make time for poker. For example we are hosting a 20+ person tourney here at the studio this Friday night. Want to come play?

I guess in the end it is a matter of different definitions of what making poker a priority really means. 50K hand months is neither realistic or even fun sounding for me. Maybe later though...

You know if I had my FTP roll over at Merge I'd play the crap out of online poker.

Anyway, I'll stop mucking up your motivational thread with my sidebar now and let the true faithful come up for the altar call. It's no fun having a vocal atheist come hang out at church i 'spose.

Thanks for letting me visit. {honest mode off... quiet mode back on}

So I should prolly like 'act as if I got the 10-incher' then? (thinkin' 9 would just keep my on my current apathetic path).

kind of spammy post here ^ .. but mostly just cuz I'm wantin' to subscribe to this thread.

gd post btw

Act as if = representing ???

good rant...enjoyed

How about reciprocity?

Don't bash cash thread, yea its a total shitshow, but thats the point

Dont like cash thread- dont post, its simple. There's prob more poker content in there than lots of other places on CC, where the standard is "do i fold AA preflop?" "hottest poker girl evar?" "im just folding AK preflop now"



and no offense Vanq, but you spam cash thread alot too. I'm not calling you out or anything, I'm just sayin....We all spam and mess around in that thread, but it pretty much just contains all the shit that's non poker related.

There are so many more pressing issues at CC than the cash thread, where almost all the posters could be considered "above average" at CC, though thats really not saying much....

KD started a strategy thread so that can answer "real" questions if you want too


edit: Obv, I qualify as cash thread spammers who could be playing 100nl if i sunk my teeth in, but BF just kind of killed motivation for lots of US players. That's not really an excuse, but it's the truth. As far as posting good content goes, I wouldn't consider myself good enough to post any serious strategy related stuff, so I put together beginner guides, try to analyze other shit etc. I like the post Vanq, just think ppl hate cash thread unnecessarily

I think I was really the only cash thread basher... But I reserve the right.

Cash thread owes me nothing. I owe it nothing.

its not just you, its a common theme at CC imo


sorry for the slightly drunk rant, but still my thoughts on the subject

i am unaware of such themes but that's mainly because i only am subscribed to like 5 threads