Texas Holdem, Skill or Luck. Court Rules

Hey Cardschatter,

Have you all read this one yet. This is a Lower Court Ruling, but is the gateway to higher Court.


Ante up! SC judge rules Texas Hold 'em is a skill

South Carolina poker players may not be sure when to fold 'em even after a judge ruled Thursday that Texas Hold 'em is a game of skill.
By MEG KINNARD
Associated Press Writer


COLUMBIA, S.C. — South Carolina poker players may not be sure when to fold 'em even after a judge ruled Thursday that Texas Hold 'em is a game of skill.
What Mount Pleasant Municipal Judge Larry Duffy didn't decide is whether that determination matters under an 1802 South Carolina law that, read literally, makes any game with cards or dice - including popular board games such as Monopoly and Sorry - illegal.
State Attorney General Henry McMaster says his office has adopted a looser interpretation that only considers games more reliant on chance than on a player's skill - including Texas Hold 'em, a popular type of poker - to be gambling and therefore illegal. Dozens of other states have similar laws.
Though Duffy said evidence was "overwhelming" that poker was a game of skill, he said he did not have enough guidance from higher courts or state lawmakers to know if that analysis makes a difference under South Carolina law.
McMaster's office called Thursday's ruling insignificant, but if it is appealed, the South Carolina Supreme Court may eventually have to decide if Texas Hold 'em is legal in the state. Locally, the ruling could keep police from arresting people involved in friendly house games.
The case stemmed from a 2006 raid on a poker game that organizers said was played casually among friends but prosecutors characterized as a for-profit gambling operation.
"It's becoming quite clear the legal community agrees that this great American pastime is a game of predominant skill, not luck, and should not be considered gambling under the law," said John Pappas, executive director of the Poker Players Association. An estimated 55 million Americans play some form of poker, and the Washington, D.C.-based association has been closely watching the case.
But Duffy's ruling doesn't help five of the 20 people arrested in the raid who didn't pay fines to settle their cases. In a separate part of the ruling, he found them guilty of operating a gambling house - something their attorney says also isn't clearly defined under state law.
"If an essential element of the criminal charge is not defined, and the court doesn't even know what it is, how can my clients expect to know whether or not they are in violation of the law?" said Greenville attorney Jeff Phillips, who plans to appeal to a circuit court.
Town prosecutor Ira Grossman said that, while the skill vs. chance finding "has no relevance as it pertains to the law," he was happy with the rest of Duffy's ruling.
"This circumstance wasn't a small poker game amongst good friends as it has been ridiculously mischaracterized by the defense," Grossman said. "It was a for-profit gambling operation."
Phillips has said there was no profit for the organizer except some money used to pay for pizza and beer for the players.

It's a game of skill, but enough people believe that it's mostly luck that it remains luck gambling. If it were labeled a game of skill and accepted as such by all then it would take a whole lot more skill to make anything off of it. The poker rooms would stop filling up with luck chasers.

+one!!!111!!

Hold em is a game of skill. Though in the WSOP we have been having ametuers winning (wish it was me!) You still see the same people winning repeatedly. This alone points to the skill needed in this game. Luck helps out too sometimes...or hurts. Lol

Here are a couple more. Most courts agree that poker is a skill game.

http://pokerplayersalliance.org/acti...states-021109/

Do you actually think a court ruling, one way or the other, would change anything about what individuals believe about poker? It was ruled to be a game of skill in California and, near as I can tell, the stream of "luck chasers" into the casinos and card rooms hasn't slowed, but rather has increased massively.

My newest understanding is that poker is a game that involves skill in controlling the luck factor.

If every player played exactly the same way, then the luck factor will rule. However, not everyone plays robotic poker, and therein lies the skill.

2009 All your base are belong to us nominee.

A sport? I wouldn't go so far as that, but undeniably a game of skill and math.

...with a little luck mixed in

Is there an update to any of this. The penn. decision is very clear but how cann it be applied to other states.

even if poker is ruled to be a game of skill; any state can prohibit it.

just like any state can prohibit alcohol

Sadly enough, by slowly but surely grinding through the legal and legislative processes.

From the legal side, each case won in any state becomes a legal precedent for arguments in cases in most, if not all, other states.

As far as legislation goes, members of the poker community must keep an eye on pending legislation on both the State and Federal level and become activists in supporting pro-gambling and opposing anti-gambling legislation. An ideal way to do this is to join the Poker Players Alliance http://pokerplayersalliance.org/ and keep updated on current State and Federal activites related to poker. You can read blogs and/or sign up for blog updates specific to your state. It also provides a quick way of checking up on how YOUR congresscritters are voting on poker related legislation.

For example (copied from PPA website):

"In April 2006, police raided a poker game in a private home on Glencoe Street and the five players are the last of about two dozen cited in the raid.

[Update 2/19/09] A South Carolina judge has ruled that Texas Hold ‘em poker is a game of skill, a ruling that could prevent police from arresting people taking part in a friendly game of poker."

In my own state, Alaska, there was a measure on the last ballot to establish a State Gaming Commission, the first step in, hopefully, legalizing at least certain types of gambling, and cleaning up Alaska's frequently schizophrenic gaming laws. It went down 68 to 32. I'm sure this was due in no small part to the failure of the pro-gambling community in the state to get organized and mount an effective media campaign. In fact, if I had not actually read the election booklet that is sent to all registered voters prior to both the Primary and General Elections, I would not have even been aware the measure was on the ballot. I was certainly aware, due to media campaigns, of measures to effectively ban mining, clean up elections and protect wolves, as you couldn't watch television for 15 minutes or listen to the radio for 5 minutes without being assaulted with at least one pro or con soundbite addressing at least one of these measures. Ah well, there's always this year and next and the one after that............

I think poker is both skill and luck. There is probably 75% luck and 25% skill. Of course its gambling. If it wasn't gambling phil Hellmuth would never lose. come on let be realistic. LMAO

nice ruling.but i still think luck has alot 2 do with it.if u dont come 2 my loco card room n see it 4 yourself...lol

I agree with ecoutee72, it is probablt 75/25 luck to skill, or maybe even more luck. It's that tiny percentage that we call the edge and means in the long run the good players get the cash. It's just a shame people who don't understand don't give it a chance. I'm lucky i live in England, where i can pretty much do what i want now i'm 18.

To Gribbly...most people don't chase because they think it's a game of luck. They chase because they don't know how likely or unlikely it is that they'll catch the card they need to win. Don't know if it's relevant but there ya go...

If it's 75% luck, maybe you can explain why people such as zachvac, or BelgoSuisse, or ChuckTs, and various other members of this forum have documented how they have successfully managed to profit from poker month after month
Most teenagers under 18 seem to be allowed to do whatever they want in the UK, too!

Those guys probably have MORE luck than others. it's more like 90% luck and 10% skill. This is the typical ratio i here pros speak of.

If it's 90% luck, why would a court decide that it's a game of skill?

As time approaches infinity, luck approaches 0.

Short term is luck, long term skill.

What pros, ignoring Hellmuth's ignorant rant stroking his own leviathan ego? Give us an example.

you guys are sitting here arguing what percent luck/skill it is...COME ON.
give me a break. I'm in the mindset now, what happens, bad beat either way taking or giving. Its not luck, its poker. If i lose 20 coinflips in a row i dont care anymore. So when you hear people say I've been running good lately. I dont believe in Running bad or good. Its poker. I dont believe in luck anymore. Im in the + and i get what you would call "lucky" everyday. Its not luck its poker. Whats gonna happen is gonna happen. I just dont believe in lucky anymore, i believe in fate.

We all know poker is a game of skill. Luck might win in the short term, but skill wins out in the long run. Bankroll size probably has more to do with winning than either skill or luck. Scared money rarely wins.

This is a crazy thing to say. Document consistent success, but it's still only luck?

Poker is definitely a game of skill and knowledge. Luck is a short-term thing. If I play a hand where I's a 4:1 favorite, I'll win 80% of the time. But you might get lucky and win a big pot 20% of the time. But even that's not luck, because your 20% win is predictable. In the long run, win percentages at showdown are pretty much etched in stone predictable. But beyond that there's the skill of pot-building, hand reading, being able to fold when you're beat, etc.

The only way poker is a game of luck is if everybody played every hand all the way to the river. But even then, eventually, we'd all come out even.

Poker is math, pure and simple, with a good dose of psychology and discipline on top of it.

There is a ton of luck involved, the skill comes in surviving when your aren't lucky and thriving when you are. It's making the best of whatever cards you get your hands on.

Exactly. "Luck" games are those that have NO skill element; nothing you do, one way or another, short of outright cheating, will in any way affect the outcome. Roulette is the classic example. Even if you only bet Red or Black, with the abysmal 1:1 payout, you're still not 50/50, because the wheel always has the 0 and 00 slots to take an additional house edge. Lotteries, much beloved of many states, including those who criminalize online poker, are an even grosser example. Keno and Bingo also come to mind.

Blackjack and poker are games where the skilled, observant player will, in the long term, will always have the edge over the "luck chasers". In Blackjack, unfortunatey, you can only minimize the house edge, but never eliminate it.

Actually, sorry to be pedantic but this is not an argument about what percent luck/skill it is, it is a discussion about whether poker is a game of luck, or a game of skill. So anybody who suggests that it is more than 50% luck is mistaken. Somebody who suggests it is 75% luck is very misguided. Somebody who suggests that it is 90% luck is bordering on insanity.I think you will find that if you ask successful poker players, and we have plenty of them posting at this forum, they will tell you that poker is a game of skill. The ups and downs are due to variance, but overall they consistently profit from the game. You can believe in fate if you want to, but you'll have a job convincing them of that. They worked hard to get to where they are now!

This is one of those topics that just gets discussed over and over again, and I frankly don't understand why we even give it the light of day. The premise in the discussion is that all opinions and viewpoints are equally valid, so those who argue that poker is a luck game should continue to do so in the hope that they can overturn the tenents of logic.

I make a motion, that CardsChat issue a resolution stating very clearly and emphatically that poker is a game of skill.

Because it is. It's really not a matter of opinion. It's a fact.
Gary

half the posts above mine were people saying "its 90 percent luck" its "70 percent luck" thats what i was replying 2. I know what the original thread was about. I was stating that now people in the thread were going back and forth about how much luck or skill it is.
Then the fate part i didnt mean it like oh so and so is destined to get rich/be a successfull player. I meant it like a given that somedays your aces are gonna lose 4 times in a row, i shouldnt have said fate, i mean to say i believe in "math/odds, or variance"

Does anyone have any idea of a sound methodolgy to establish the truth in this luck verus skill argument.. Is there a math model or has there been a testable hypotheis posited any where that anyone knows about.