Talk to Me About Payout Structures in MTTs

#1 6th July 2009, 4:11 AM

When talking about payout structures in large field MTTs, I seem to be encountering some confusing. There are two elements to a payout structure:
-The percentage of the field which makes the money
-The exponential increases once the money is reached

Oftentimes someone will discuss a "top heavy" payout strucutre, but are never really clear what they are talking about. Do they mean a tournament where only 2% of the field gets paid? Do they mean a SNG that pays 80/10/5/3/2? It's never really quite clear.

The difference is important because the strategies differ. Let's take an FTP tournament; say the 1000FTP Satty to the $750k. Let's say 43 people enter and the prize pool is one entry, or 43000FTPs (no overlay, no rake). Am I correct in believing that cEV = $EV here? The reverse, I assume, would be true in a satellite that paid a larger field percentage- your "Bubble Factor" is a LOT higher, which is why these tournaments are very often misplayed (but are still profitable despite the fact that you will be paying more per hour in rake.)

Assuming an adequate bankroll for it (or an infinite bankroll... but why would we be playing poker then?), does a player with a large edge on the field prefer a structure that only pays one player? What if there is no rake?

#2 6th July 2009, 3:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syfted

When talking about payout structures in large field MTTs, I seem to be encountering some confusing. There are two elements to a payout structure:
-The percentage of the field which makes the money
-The exponential increases once the money is reached

Oftentimes someone will discuss a "top heavy" payout strucutre, but are never really clear what they are talking about. Do they mean a tournament where only 2% of the field gets paid? Do they mean a SNG that pays 80/10/5/3/2? It's never really quite clear.

The difference is important because the strategies differ. Let's take an FTP tournament; say the 1000FTP Satty to the $750k. Let's say 43 people enter and the prize pool is one entry, or 43000FTPs (no overlay, no rake). Am I correct in believing that cEV = $EV here? The reverse, I assume, would be true in a satellite that paid a larger field percentage- your "Bubble Factor" is a LOT higher, which is why these tournaments are very often misplayed (but are still profitable despite the fact that you will be paying more per hour in rake.)

Assuming an adequate bankroll for it (or an infinite bankroll... but why would we be playing poker then?), does a player with a large edge on the field prefer a structure that only pays one player? What if there is no rake?

lol they def wouldnt want a payout structure that only pays one player. look at the main event for example. any average like mid stakes player has a big edge over the field, yet majority bust do to suckouts etc. so no matter how big your edge is, theres always variance

#3 6th July 2009, 4:29 PM

I'm really asking if your ROI will be greater in tournaments that don't pay multiple places. Because cEV=$EV, will poor players no longer have the inherent edge of the bubble factor and thus have a lower ROI? In a tournament that pays only one spot, is the difference between +ROI and -ROI players greater over the long run than in a tournament which has a very flat payout structure? What does that difference look like in terms of $/hr?

For example, in the Stars double or nothings, half the field gets paid, but you probably still have an edge over the people who got beat. You'd rather run them through in a single tournament. Your variance would be higher, but so would your hourly.

The problem I'm running into is that idk if the mass volume of tournament data is really out there to make these assertions...

#4 6th July 2009, 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syfted

I'm really asking if your ROI will be greater in tournaments that don't pay multiple places. Because cEV=$EV, will poor players no longer have the inherent edge of the bubble factor and thus have a lower ROI? In a tournament that pays only one spot, is the difference between +ROI and -ROI players greater over the long run than in a tournament which has a very flat payout structure? What does that difference look like in terms of $/hr?

For example, in the Stars double or nothings, half the field gets paid, but you probably still have an edge over the people who got beat. You'd rather run them through in a single tournament. Your variance would be higher, but so would your hourly.

The problem I'm running into is that idk if the mass volume of tournament data is really out there to make these assertions...

In theory, yes your ROI would be greater in say a "winner take all" tournament. However say this is the case and it is a 180 person SnG..... You have to beat out 179 people to make the profit. Also each person is fighting for that top spot and they are probably playing a little tighter game than ussual. This could make the game go on for a longer peroid. On the other hand if your playing a 180 person SnG the top 18 places pay, where last place is ussually double the buy in, next is tripple, ect.... The goal for most here is to get to the top 18. Some at this point don't care about placement, or loosen up a bit as they are ITM.

Stars double or nothing.... I've seen these, just never played in them.... I don't know the exact numbers... say there are 300 people in the tournament, you only need to outlast 150 people to make double your profit.... I'm not sure what to make of these.... they are good tournament I'd assume, but your only making double your money as compared to a first place finish in a tournament that you could make more? I guess a profit is a profit....

#5 7th July 2009, 1:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syfted

Oftentimes someone will discuss a "top heavy" payout strucutre, but are never really clear what they are talking about. Do they mean a tournament where only 2% of the field gets paid? Do they mean a SNG that pays 80/10/5/3/2? It's never really quite clear.

"Top heavy" basically means that the majority of the prize pool is concentrated in the top few spots. What exactly that constitutes will vary depending on the tournament and how many entrants it has. Winner takes all would be the extreme of top heavy.

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