Switching to limit ring - I have questions!

Background: In an earlier thread where we were discussing out goals for 2007, I said that my primary goal was getting into a nice groove and playing a lot of good, disciplined poker. As part of that, I am thinking about getting into some limit ring action. I am by background more of a NL and Omaha tournament player, but I learned my basics playing limit.

Rationale: Limit suits both my existing strengths in poker (probabilities and maths) and I hope it will also help me improve my weaknesses (discipline). I understand that it is a very different animal than NL tourneys, and plan to change my gameplan accordingly. Variety is the spice of life!

Plan: I plan to pick a fruitful site, pick a limit, and play 10k hands at that limit to start. I'll consider moving up or whatever once that's done.

I have a bunch of questions, and I'm hoping the limit players among us can give me a hand:

(1) What limit should I play?

I consider myself to be an ok intermediate poker player. I have read and absorbed Sklansky's ToP, Harrington's 3 books, and probably a half dozen other books by them, Miller, McEvoy, etc. So as far as my game goes, I feel I will be able to perform at a high level fairly quickly, I just need to time to adjust my play to the game. Based on F Paulsson's bankroll guidelines, I can probably safely play anything up to $5/$10 (at least following my tourney win recently), but I have no ambition to start anywhere near that high and wouldn't mind cashing out some anyway. I don't want to start too low, though, either, because I think that will stunt my learning somewhat. My object is to get better as much as it is to beat the game.

Based on this, where do you think I should start, where good, TAG play can net me a winrate > 0? $0.50/$1, $1/2, $2/4? Lower? Higher?

(2) Let's talk starting hands?

I don't need a chart, or really basic information, but what are some of the biggest differences between starting hands you'd raise/call with in NL versus ones you'd raise/call with in limit? Do you not have the implied odds for low suited connectors? Low pocket pairs? Should I be raising more with high pairs? Etc.

A decent chart for reference wouldn't be bad also.

Note: I enjoy playing short-handed tables and might like to play 6-handed. Please keep that in mind? ... See next question.

(3) Short-handed versus full table?

I like short-handed games because it keeps me more interested, less likely to get bored, and I'm more able to "play the players" which I find improves my game and my results. Thoughts?

(4) Any other tips?

Suggestions for a donk no limit player who wants to try limit?

Hopefully this thread will then be filled with useful information and discussion that others will be able to search later.

Thanks guys!
Beriac

I think Skalnsky's 'Small Stakes Poker' would give you an idea for questions on starting hands for limit. It's aimed at playing donks at loose tables, so it is a bit looser than I would be willing to play myself.

As for where to start, probably .50/1.00 would be the best from what you have mentioned. You are obviously prepared to go through a bit of a learning curve, so you don't want to be burning through buy-ins at $2$/4.

I am not a limit player myself, but I hope this info helps. I could be WAY off so hopefully Fred sees this thread as he is the resident expert.

As you correctly guessed, I am obviously hoping for a reply here from FP.

I'll take a look at the Sklansky book you mentioned. I've found that depending on the sites, the play is a little tighter than I had expected, so I wonder if those strategies still apply today.

I sat down and played 300-something hands last night at $2/$4 (I picked that starting point to try to clear a bonus) and found that with the right table, fairly tight poker was good enough to net me small but consistent profits over (a very short) time.

i've been playing sng's/mtt's exclusively for the last 2 months, and i recently switched to $1/$2 limit and am loving it so far. just play all of your edges very aggressively, keep position in mind & remember that the value of hands like tptk and overpairs go does down because of the betting style.. and that suited connectors/gappers & pocket pairs goes up.

I thought it was the other way round - don't play suited connectors so much in Limit because you don't get the right implied odds.

But you always get the right odds to call and chase your draws

True, but that just means you're putting more money in when you're behind. The high pairs benefit from that.

EDIT: I don't really know what I'm talking about. Maybe someone who really knows the difference could confirm.

lol i dont either.

But i dont think you should look at it as being behind.

The way i see odds is that you shouldnt look at one hand.

For example if you have four people and youre chasing a straight, if you call one bet youre getting 3:1, which justifies it. Youre behind on that one hand to an overpair, but when you do hit it, roughly 30% of time i guess, you make up your losses. So on long run it pays off.

One of the most subtle things to adjust to is placing a little more emphasis on the number of players who have entered a pot.

If you think about implied value in NL the value can come from a single players stack, and you arent necessarily concerned if there are 2 people in the pot or 5.

In Limit however, hands like 22,33,44,55,66, suited connectors etc arent of much value unless you have several limpers into the pot. In fact I would go so far as to say, that in an inactive pot, these are an instant pre-flop fold without a seconds thought.

In no limit if you have an overpair, you can protect it and not give draws the right odds to call. In limit, you cant.

My one big anecdotal experience so far is that I need to beware overvaluing TPTK-type hands in limit, especially if a lot of people have seen the flop. I can't scare anyone away with my 1-bet, so people chase their draws, and when I get raised on the turn or river I often find I'm up against 2 pair, a straight, or a flush.

So I actually agree with a lot of the comments here:

- If you get TPTK, you have to bet to protect it but in a way you can't, so watch for scare cards and try to save unneeded bets if you think you're beat (not overdoing this, of course).
- Conversely, you'll often get odds to make strong draws.

I think that the number of players in the pot is huge here. If there are 3-4 other players seeing a flop, and I have TPTK, I'm a lot less likely to bet it strong to the end if one of the other players starts raising huge. IE, as I think I read in FP's blog once, saving bets is as important as winning them.

Joose, how are the players at $1/$2 where you play (and where do you play limit?)? Very tight? Generally strong and savvy?

This is actually one of the reasons that I left limit for NL originally. But now, I think I can probably stand the variance that would come from making correct decisions but not having the ability to win pots on the spot and rather, having to repeat the process of betting while ahead several times to come out in the money.

This is highly helpful guys, please keep 'em coming!

This is a very very difficult question to answer.

Id suggest not starting at any of the limits that you mentioned above, you tend to come across a high percentage of poor players at $2/$4 as well as 50c/$1 (where id suggest you start). Id suggest starting here and beating each level as you move up, try to find a site that offers you some degree of bonus for all the rake your invariably going to pay, wiithir it be rake back or FPP's (Stars)

I have to suggest reading a limit poker book, you have a good grasp of poker already, then Slanskys Holdem for advanced players is a must. Where as no limit poker in essence is a game of implied odds, limit poker to an extent is a game of direct odds, there will be times when chasing that gutshot are correct, where as in NL this is rarely true.

Giving specific examples of specific hands in a lot of cases is a bad idea, because to an extent it gives you a one dimensioal aspect of the game. The playing small pair example above. As Welly stated above, in a multi way pot its set value or fold, however against a button raise in the BB, a small pair may be a raising hand.

Having the abilty to count your outs quickly and accurately, calucuating your pot odds, are important, in a lot of cases its a very mechanical game and to an extent bores the hell out of me.

Great stuff 10bob.

- I've found a good place with a great rakeback situation to start. You're right, limit is about grinding out BBs/hr and every edge counts.
- I will pick up the Sklansky book you mentioned. I generally love Sklansky books anyway.

If I were to start at $0.50/$1.00, what kind of threshold might be a good way of testing myself to move up to $1.00/$2.00? Increasing my bankroll X% is irrelevant because it's not a matter of how much risk I can afford at those stakes. I'd rather try to achieve a good winrate after X amount of hands -- what kind of winrate and how many hands would make a good hurdle to advancement?

Ohhhh, ok.
Generally 1.5-2BB/100 is a good return, but the swings can be horrible. Winrate of what i mentioned over 30K-50K hands should be enough. Oh make sure you have pokertracker. And read FP's guide in the articles section.

Beriac:

I've gone back and forth between LHE & NLHE for a while and I'll share with you some realities I have personally discovered over and above what I learned from Sklansky's great SSHE.

1) When considering stakes, your total bankroll is key. This is because, even though you can't go all-in, you will lose bigger chunks of your stack on missed draws since you will have odds to chase so many times. IMHO, you actually need a bigger bankroll to play Limit than NL (near the same stakes).

2) The lower the stakes, the tighter you must play. I don't play lower than 50c/$1 (when BR allows) because, even at those stakes, a raise is only 50 cents or a dollar more. Donkey chasers will stay in the cheaper it is, even if they don't know the odds. Now at $5/$10, a raise carries more weight.

3) Yes, play suited connectors when the odds are right. They are actually pretty good to go up against AA. You can always dump them at the turn when the price goes up and you don't hit.

Beyond that, just experiment to find the stakes and table type you are comfortable with. Remember, the blinds come around faster at a 6-player table than at 9 or 10. Good luck.

Edit: This is in response to Tenbob's last post here.

Even though I consider myself a semi-experienced poker player, I've probably read every word FP has written once or twice.

I agree about the swings. Limit seems like a calm game, but those crazy hands where you and a villain or 2 are capping every round can make a big difference to one's winrate.

Problem is, TB, 30-50k hands might be a bit much. I figure I can do maybe 100-300 hands per day. I don't want to be impatient, but as someone who played at a higher level in ring/SNG/MTT NL, do I have the patience to wait as much as half a year to clear the $0.50/$1 level if I am overrolled for it?

For the same reason that playing above your roll can be a bad thing because the psychology of it makes you make bad decisions, I wonder if spending so long as $0.50/$1 would have a similar impact?

Whereas, I might be able to clear 10k hands in a month and could maybe keep my head on right knowing that I was working toward an achievable, near-term goal?

The problem with 10K hands is that its a very small sample, but seems as your over-rolled, go for it, and then re-assess where to go. As far as skill levels go at the different limits go, i found it very similar from 50c/1 right up to 3/6 with the 5/10 players (smmmalllll sample) being overly loose.

Post a few hands in the HA section as you go along and well have a look.

Awesome. Sounds like a plan.

This might be a dumb idea, because I agree with you that limit lacks some of that "excitement" of no limit, but if anything this year has been too much excitement (ups and downs) and not enough stability in my poker game, so I think I need to take things down a notch.

I still plan to play NL tourneys, and recognize that this will require switching gears substantially, but I hope I will become a better player for it.

the play at the $1/$2 at pokerstars seems very ABC. most players check/call draws & dont understand how their position affects raises. if you want as much money in the pot as possible & the preflop raiser is to your left you check raise your draw. if you want to cut down on the amount of players in the pot, you bet into him hoping he will raise. position means more in limit, in my opinion.. since you will be playing more hands, especially in late position than in NLHE

I have been making the switch myself in the last two months because of the donks in NLHE. I'll try to give you some answers based on what has happened to me.

[quote=Beriac;463636](1) What limit should I play?

$1/2 is a good place to start. Any lower you will find more donks sliming the floors than you care to play with. That's not to say you are not going to find them at this level. In fact if your play is good enough you want to seek out at least one at your table.

(2) Let's talk starting hands?
Starting hands are still what you would play NL. What makes you think they change in limit? The only difference is your small PP or suited connectors. It is cheaper to see a flop with them on limit. But that depends on your position and all the other depends.

(3) Short-handed versus full table?

I love short handed tables. The action is faster. You have more control of the table. And control of the table is what you want in limit.

(4) Any other tips?

The biggest drawback here in playing limit is you wil get more suckouts when you have TPTK. Like it has been mentioned here these are the hands that can give you the most grief but also the biggest pleasure of winning with when you have a chaser.

I have been enjoying limit since switching. Also try playing limit tourneys. You get lots of players there who have no clue on how to play and you can do real good there.

Shouldn't this make you want to stay with NLHE?

That's what I was thinking. I love finding No-Limit donks and call them down with top pair as they bet 3rd pair. I think that Limit donks are harder to take advantage of because it's tough to create bad odds and have them make the wrong play.

Good luck with the limit game
From my point of view limit tourneys are easier than NL tournies especailly when the blinds get around medium level, it becomes realy easy to take down pots,just bet even with bottom pair 2 kicker.. bet flop bet turn bet river... most people fold river... maybe throw in a check raise... but you probably know that already...
another reason why limit is great...because bad beats dont hurt your stack as much.. lol

although what i said goes tottally against this... i stand by it


althought it just made me realise...



im a nl donk...

$1/$2, as BBB suggested, is probably a good place for you to start.
Virtually no online pros play that low, and at the same time you will find some people who take the game seriously. Put differently, this is a limit where you'll find challenge, but not get smacked around.

The difficulty of play increases quite a bit between $1/$2 and up to $5/$10 (I can't speak for higher than that), so getting into it gradually is probably good. I say "difficulty" and not "quality" because while there are still lots of really bad players at $5/$10, they're more of the wild and aggressive type rather than the loose/passive kind. The loose/passive ones are easier to beat for most people.

Quote:

(2) Let's talk starting hands?

You're on the right track when you mention implied odds, since that's the problem with playing speculative hands in limit. Implied odds can be there against the right opposition though, since some players are extremely aggressive with mediocre hands (one player the other night capped the turn with AA unimproved - don't do that). That comes down to reads though, so as a general rule of thumb, don't play 7-6s and the likes too much. I don't have a chart to give you, unfortunately, and I'm a bit short on time to give more specific examples. However, post some preflop decisions in the hand analysis forum and I'll be happy to look at them.

For instance, what's your play with AJs in the small blind after two people have limped?

Short-handed favors aggressive and slightly loose players, and is what I basically play exclusively since about six months back. You will find yourself in difficult situations a lot more often since you will play a lot of merely decent hands, and that's an excellent way of learning. A full table is "safer" in the sense that the swings aren't as bad, but potentially less profitable. A game where the players end up in difficult situations a lot favors the better player.

Some rule of thumbs (but there are no "always" in poker):

* Preflop and not in the blinds, you shouldn't call, you should raise. If your hand isn't worth raising, it's usually not worth player. Exception granted to speculative hands in late position after several people have limped.

* Read Small Stakes Hold 'em; understand the process of counting outs and how to play overcards - because you will be stuck with nothing but overcards on the flop often.

* Folding the river in a big pot takes a serious conviction that you're actually beat. Folding a winner is really, really expensive.

* Since people don't generally fold the river, practise the art of value betting. Sometimes, 2-2 is something that should be bet on the river. AK often calls unimproved. Again, reads are important; take notes of your opponents and what kind of hands they go to showdown with.

There's more to say - books worth of more - but I'll get back to this thread later. Need to head out to the lab now; yesterday was a 16 hour workday and I'm hoping to prevent that from happening today again

No actually because of the fact NLHE donks will call with anything. And I'm talking that now you are fighting full tables of these guys. So who do you think is going to be the loser alot? I would rather have a gradual rise in my bankroll than the wild swings it takes in the NL donkafest.

I assume you are talking ring games? If so, tell me what site these maniacs are on - I'll be there to build my BR. I can't find enough of these tables!!

Poker Host, Stars, USA, Absolute. Take your pick.

This thread has so many contradictions it is slightly alarming.

The best advice I think Beriac is to read a little of FP, then to start playing and work it out as you go along. Get those feet wet at some low limit.

I've got some charts, but I havent put them through enough volume to recommend them 100%.

I'm going to try to answer this by topic to keep my replies concise(r).

Alright! $1/$2 seems to be the way to go. It should be ok for the various bonuses that I will be playing for, which is just that, a bonus.

I've sampled various tables at many stake levels to gather data more than anything, and I find it's possible to find tight and loose $1/$2 tables, tight and loose $3/$6 tables, etc etc. But the lower ones do seem to be more passive and less aggressive, and with a greater amount of really questionable play. I'll start there. Thanks!

I've also tried full ring and short handed. I think that short handed suits my style more and will also give me more to do (for me, boredom = tilt). Short handed it is!

Wow, this is really coming along.