SUNGLASSES IN POKER: Maybe douchey, but cheating?

When I read about Daniel Negreanu comparing wearing sunglasses during live poker to cheating, I thought he was nuts and I was afraid I'd be in a very small minority. But as I see more reaction around the 'net, I see that I'm not. So far, seems a good split. Here's a recent article in Card Player:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-blog...d-poker-really

What do you think?

There's no way that wearing sunglasses in live poker can be compared to colluding, chip stealing, etc. Cheating in poker is a serious matter, and wearing sunglasses is no where near that

Here's a hint on how I voted:

coolPoster.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28348&d=1273599348)

Unless they're x-ray glasses where you can see the other side of your opponents cards.. I don't see a problem with sunglasses.

I like Daniel Negraneau... but I think the problem he has with people wearing sunglasses.. is that he relies a lot on tells.. and the eyes give a lot away.

I wear sunglasses because casinos are too damn bright. No different than the ear plugs I wear because casinos are too damn loud.

I dont like if use sunglasses at poker table. I think just fashion recently.

I don't understand how it could even be a question that wearing sunglasses is cheating. Of course it's not.

They might help you to hide 'tells' that you are giving. So will a baseball cap in some cases.

If your opponent objects because the sunglasses limit the amount of information he can get by way of tells, he's free to put them on himself.

If your opponent objects because he can't tell when you are looking at him, maybe he has to do some work on hiding his tells so he doesn't have to worry about when you are looking at him and when you aren't.

i dont wear sunglasses while playing, but i would hardly call it cheating. i mean if it makes them feel better to have sunglasses on, good for them. its just not a big deal to me. i believe that you can find out more about a player by watching how they act, how they play, and if they are nervous at times than you can from staring into their eyes.

Did someone really just say card rooms are bright? Where do you play?

I think sunglasses are funny. Especially because most of the people that I find wearing them are rather fishy. When the kids sit down and puts his sunglasses on and then ear phones in I think it sends the message that you are a defensive player and are scared. It almost screams low confidence.

With that said, I dont think its cheating.

^^ Hat works better.

[ ] Sunglasses.Makes u look cool
....think about it

i dont think they are, they are just part of the game now, its like saying wearing batting gloves in baseball is cheating, it helps you, but its not agianst the rules.

I wear them. In no way is it cheating. Unless you want to ban hoods, hats, all glasses, putting your hands in front of your face, and putting your head down then you really can't knock the sunglasses.

Since you made the CC official poll and included cake and bastard...I went Bastard....TV tables are really bright and outdoors are fine...but it really doesn't matter if someone wears them indoors to me...it just won't be me.

i'd rather have the contact lens that could see the aces like the old lady on CSI years ago. daniel also thinks no sunglasses allowed on tv poker, guess he thinks it would be more entertaining for the viewers to see their eyes.

Sunglasses are lame in my opinion. Kinda hackey!

What kind of cake?

I voted douchy, although that is in part down to me owning this bad boy!



Wanna play a game?

I voted "I could care less either way since there's more to poker than this." because wearing sunglasses doesn't change the game at all. It just makes it to where they can't get a read from your eyes, lots of players have their own ways of trying to let the opponent not make a read from them. Some read books, listen to music, eat food, etc. People have their own ways of doing that, and sunglasses is one of them. If that is considered cheating, you might as well consider the rest cheating because it's for the same cause. It doesn't change the game at all, it just helps players out. It's actually more like a strategy then cheating in my opinion.

His argument is totally irrational, and although I respect him greatly, it's really not even worth reading.

Wearing sunglasses being cheating is one of the dumbest things i've heard in my life, how do these people win on online poker?

Or would a wireless mouse be cheating as well?

Sunglasses could be use for novice or even pro-players who aren't that good on hiding their emotions (tells). I'd never consider using sunglasses as cheating, some might think using them is an advantage that's it.

Daniel is not only one of the greatest players ever but a great ambassador for the game. However, on this one he is just wrong. Players do what they can to hide tells and detect others tells. Sunglasses are just one tool a player uses. Besides where would it end? Are we goiing to tell Chris Ferguson he can't wear his cowboy hat?

I don't know about casinos elsewhere, but casinos in Minnesota are lit up like it's a damn carnival midway. And always way too loud.

TBH, I have zero problem with anyone wearing sunglasses at a big televised final table. The one time I seen one the lights were blinding as hell as soon as you sat into one of the seats (didnt make that final table, but i did sit into one of the seats just before the players arrived).

Players wearing sunglasses in their local $5-$500 MTT or whatever are just plain idiots. It dosnt look cool, it just makes me laugh.

There are several studies that will give credibility to "tells", that you give off as soon as you look at your cards. Looking up and left is supposed to be a sign of a weak hand, looking up and right is strong etc, tbh I've never gained much from looking for these tells.

I normally agree with a lot of what Daniel says, however this is the most insane thing he has ever brought up. It makes no sense!

+1, "lol" was my first thought in response to that.

Anyone who knows better wouldn't be wearing glasses at the table anyway if they're playing less than $1,000nl. The massive majority of players at 1/2 and 2/5 are recreational. If you sit down and joke with them and have a care-free attitude then they're feeling normal, in their element, and they're going to play their loose-passive poker they usually do.

If you sit down and put in your headphones, your sunglasses, pull your hood up, and sit in silence because you mean business! You know what that fish is going to think? Holy crap that guy looks scary, I better stay away from him. At the very least he's going to tighten his range against you, which is by definition making him play better specifically against you. But worse he might not call you anymore cuz you're the scary guy, you can actually close the calling stations down.

In a situation where everyone is fairly serious i.e $5/10nl and higher, than glasses aren't as big a deal. Okay you're here to play? So is everyone else, tell us something we didn't know. Also in tournaments, the effect of people being more willing to fold to your bets is a beneficial thing, as chipping up with no risk of losing the hand is just awesome (However the EV implications are still less EV than if they'd call you every time, the math is just different for tournies and having 0 chance of busting can outweigh greater EV situations in terms of ICM calcs).

If they want to wear them, then let them.
Most of the live players I have played against in Vegas with sunglasses are amateurs that have seen players on TV wearing them.
And most of them give their chips away trying to catch that flush or gutshot against my two pair or set.

Besides some guys (Ferguson for example) make the look seem cool!

Cake, IMO.

As for the cheating comment, I think you'll find he's talking about the potential for people to mark the deck in such a way that they can see the marks through their (possibly specially tinted) sunglasses. Others who aren't wearing the specially tinted glasses, or aren't wearing glasses at all, won't see there's anything wrong with the deck.

I dunno how often things like that actually happen, but I'd figure it'd be pretty rare. Plus the comments at the bottom of the link in the OP have a point - there's nothing stopping someone tinting a pair of regular glasses to achieve the same effect and you can hardly ban regular glasses from the table.

(Follow up: yep, that was pretty much his point)

Daniel Negreanu isn't exactly saying wearing sunglasses is cheating, he's saying they can be used to cheat. Here is a video he put up on his twitter page.

YouTube- marked cards dominoes poker at cheating

I am completely against sunglasses in live poker venues. I think they should be against the rules along with anything else that hides your face while you play. I think it is bad for the game. As poker has become more "mainstream" it will change. Just as all games/sports do as they grow. Rules are made along the way to keep them competitive and sporting. IMO live poker is differentiated from OL poker in a few ways, but one of the main ways is the ability to read your opponent face to face. If we take out this facet of live poker we might as well just play online from home. I want them to be different because they ARE different. I see I'm in the minority, but even if you disagree I hope you can at least see the merit in a sunglasses free game.

Stix

Ive played some small live tourneys at casinos and haven't used sunglasses. I think i would tend to stick out there. However, if i quailify for WSOP you can bet your ass i will wear sunglasses. Probably would wear a bag over my head to hide as much as possible.

I do not personally equate shades with cheating. I also do not wear shades when playing.

However, I do think it is interesting that if I showed up wearing a halloween mask I'd probably not be allowed to play and I find it hard to differentiate between a full face mask and a full face mask made up of assorted hoods, facial hair, sunglasses and hats.

I noticed that DN in that video didn't show the the other side of the cards he was showing, he just showed what he wanted ppl to see. Looked like BS to me.

Companies that make cards make sure that is not possible, and how many casinos or live venues would not check to see if the cards that they are using have that ability.

Also who in their right mind would attempt to mark cards during a game, at the live games that I play if I see any cards that have been tampered with I point it out to the dealer or the ppl running the venue, and also ask for a new deck.

As for the OP's qestion regarding cheating, I don't think you can say it is cheating, cheating implies that you are gaining an advantage, wearing sunglasses does not give you an advantage.

I voted Bastard because I can.


Maybe when you are outside in the sun, indoors they make you look like someone that wants to look like the pro's but without the skill.



I only wear sunglasses when I play online.

It clearly says "it is even clearer under contact lenses".

They going to check your eyes for non-prescription contacts too?

If someone wants to wear mirror sunglasses, I'd love it!

Some people think it makes them look cool, some think it hides some possible tells. (Some of the better tells are body tells, anyway.) They do conceal, a bit, where the person is looking. But plenty of folks hide their face with caps or hair or even hands.

And I think Daniel was talking about the cheating when he talked about it on High Stakes Poker. Others mentioned that in some TV tourneys the lights are really bright and sunglasses are helpful.