STT step experiment

ok so this dude on this other forum thought this idea up but its pretty similar to the step tourney thing that party poker used to have. The OP on the other site stopped at step 4 so I expaned it to 11 steps.


step 1 : play $5 STT and if you win move to step 2

step 2: play $10 STT if you dont cash move down to step 1, if you cash repeat step 2 and if you win move to step 3

step 3: play $20 STT if you dont cash move down to step 2, if you cash repeat step 3 and if you win move to step 4

step 4: play $30 STT if you dont cash move down to step 3, if you cash reapeat step 4 and if you win move to step 5

step 5: play $50 STT if you dont cash move down to step 4, if you cash repeat step 5 and if you win move to step 6

step 6: play a $100 STT if you dont cash move down to step 5, if you cash repeat step 6 and if you win move to step 7

step 7: play a $200 STT if you dont cash move down to step 6, if you cash repeat step 7 and if you win move up to step 8

step 8: play a $300 STT if you dont cash move down to step 7, if you cash repeat step 8 and if you win move up to step 9

step 9: play a $500 STT if you dont cash move down to step 7, if you cash repeat step 8 and if you win move up to step 10

step 10: play a $1000 STT if you dont cash move down to step 9, if you cash repeat step 10 and if you win move up to step 11

step 11: play a $2000 STT if you dont cash move down to step 10, if you cash repeat step 11 and if you win be happy as hell because you just made $9,000 off a $5 investment.



of course you can stop at any step you wish.

I thought step one was to cut a hole in the box.

Sounds like a fun experiment.

LOL. Too funny.

This sounds like a great idea.. and I will be trying it. It's similar to rampaging but is much more safe and probably more profitable. You won't be using all of your previous prize money for your next buy-in, so any advancement in the "staircase" will generate profit.

Storm, if you are going to do this, can ya let us know of your progress please?

Didn't Noble used to offer some prize like a $1 Million if you could win 7 straight STT's? They wouldn't have offered that if it was damn near impossible.

Granted this process doesn't require 7 straight wins, but it does require alot of luck to go along with your skills.

http://www.cardschat.com/f43/stormsw...22/#post593697

trust me im not suggesting this is easy, and not saying you have to win 7 straight. Look it over again if you cash you play the same level if you dont you drop down a level. I played the party poker steps and enjoyed them a lot.

This is something that can teach you how to play STT better and you will get to try some big STT for little invested.

There is a reason the prior person did not carry it out to 11 steps. Assume Joe is an above average player (and EVERYBODY thinks they are above average). This above average Joe can actually place in the top four EVERY time. (Hmmm. Really MUCH above average, isn't he?) So, in four games 25% of the time he takes first money and progresses, 50% wins second or third, 25% drops down a level. It is hard to find a STT above $100, so lets go to level 6 only. Joe will win his $450 less $110, or $340 on his 2907th game (on average). At an hour/tournament, Joe has spent a year straight playing poker 8 hours a day. We will have to neglect the 26.8% of the time he busted out at a $5 tournament level. However, Average Joe does make $11.50 a tournament average.

If we carry this out to 11 steps, assuming you can get high dollar tournament whenever you want, it will take 342 years to finally win that top dollar and start all over again.

actully the reason he stopped at level 4 is he only wanted to win 1k, and this is very doable in less then 345 years. I know people that played the step tourneys at party poker and made it to the final step. If people were not making it to last step there party poker would of stopped them.

everytime you cash at whatever level you bank money regardless. and there are people that make a lot of money playing STT. zeejustin is the 1st one that comes to mind. Our goal is not to make it to the last step but to see how far we can go and of course if the money gets too much you just simply stop. You get a lot of experience at levels you may not be ready for with very little risk since you are using pure profit. So our goal is to play and learn. Think of it this way you make it to a step 4 with a bankroll of $100, you were bankrolled and playing $5 STT anyway so now you got the experience of playing $20 STT which gives you a head start for when you are finally bankrolled for that level.

Party's steps were fun but the rake could eat you up. Also there was reportedly some collusion at the higher levels. Russians i think.

Self structured steps can work out better. When you get to a level you're uncomfortable with you can drop down or just hang at that level til you get a good feel for it.

Goldog

agreed, Like I already said the goal of this is to get experience in games you are not playing yet. I know I myself have never done $100 STT but would love to get to try them out with very little risk to my bankroll. Hell if I can get to play one by pure profit that would be great.

Go for it if you want, I was just pointing out that you don't just jump up to level 5 or 6 in a few tournaments. In my example, Joe went up a level in an average of once in four tournaments, but down once in four tournaments. The progression says on AVERAGE Joe will take a year to win level 6. And Joe really was above average to have placed no lower than fourth ever.

You can figure how many people had to enter the bottom of Party's pyramid for one person to come out at the top and it is a lot.

again this is about experience more then results.

This looks very interesting storm, I might have to try it out a little bit, however I cant see myself ever even trying to go for anything past step 5. I have one question though, what kind of bankroll do u think you would need to try this out? Would being properly rolled for 5 dollar SnGs be enough?

YES,

remember you are playing with pure profit past step 1.

Yes I see what u mean, I am definately going to be trying this out. I am pretty nicely rolled for 5.50 STTs with 150 dollars. I am always looking for interesting things to try as I get bored fairly easily just grinding out STTs and 10max all day.

Vegas and poker sites LOVE people with a system.

its not a system to get rich dude, its a way to get experience playing high levels with NO RISK TO YOU. Is that that part you dont get?

here you go I will expain it for you.

win the $5 STT you bank $22.50 and you play $11 STT, and lose you profit $10.50 and you drop down a level. If you stick to the chart there is zero risk to you besides losing a $5 STT. If you continue to drop down when you lose then you will not lose money in this.

imagine if you are a $5 STT player and you make it to level 3 even, you get experience playing at that level with no money from your bankroll since you are just playing with your profits.

It is pretty IMPOSSIBLE to make it all the way to the end of this, but that is not our goal here. Our goal is to give players experience playing out of their comfort zone with again ZERO RISK.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Assume you can play $5 STTs and win enough to make a small profit, say an average of $2 per tournament. This means you place 1, 2, 3, >3, >3, >3 of 6 entries. Now, if you take $11 from a win and play a $10 STT. There is a 50% probablity you will drop back on the first tournament. You can say there is "NO RISK TO YOU", but your bankroll is $11 smaller. If you have a better average that I used, you could be playing at higher level anyway. No matter where the entry fee seems to come from, it is from your pocket in the end.

yes I realize that its still money from your total bankroll but its also pure profit from you $5 MTT win. I dont understand why you are making your numbers so confusing though?

ok lets put it this way,

you play $5 mtt and win now you have $22.50 and move up to $11 STT and get 2nd and thats good for $27 and you have to replay that level now. So far you have spent $17 in buy ins and banked $49.50 and that would leave you with profit of $32.50. remember so far you have only invested $5 regardless of what you have made, ok so you replay level and lose so you drop down to level 1. so far you made 22.50 and you are back where you started with actul profit. Again no one is saying you have to continue playing, you make it to level 3 and you can stop.

there really is zero risk since after level 1 you are playing with pure profit, I explained this as good as I can. You are set on your ways and if you believe it is a bad idea you are in a minority since I have posted this on multiple sites and you are honestly the only one who have said anything negative about it.

I'll probably try this ,sounds cool ,once I win I dont think of it as profit anymore , its my money , but I like it .

also like to say , wow , how calm and composed you sound , no matter if they like it or not , keep that up and we may have to pull your resident jerk status. jk you're cool . thanks

trust me by the end of the week I will say something to confirm my title.

I'm sold. The progression is not steep enough to do any serious damage if one is well funded for $5 SNGs. It also dawned on me that it could work out to help find your level of proficiency.

Goldog

I've been doing this the last couple of days. I am currently on the fourth level playing 6 max turbos. Here's how my progression has gone so far:

6.60 Lost
6.60 Second
6.60 Win
12.00 Second
12.00 Second
12.00 Win
24.00 Win


I'm playing a little bit above the dollar limit because Full Tilt Poker's 6 max turbos don't go in 10$ intervals, but I'm counting them the same. I would never be able to play 24.00$ SnGs with my bankroll, but I managed to win one doing this experiment. =P

Here's a SS:

the bolded part I like the best because that is what I was trying to explain to the other poster. Nice job sir.

My run ends. =(

Full Tilt Poker Game #3210082124: $33 + $3 Sit & Go (Turbo) (24541569), Table 1 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:49:07 ET - 2007/08/10
Seat 1: JDK0806 (1,140)
Seat 2: temujin (660)
Seat 3: JohnnJohn (1,885)
Seat 4: MYLOSS (2,415)
Seat 5: lefty6226 (1,100)
Seat 6: SharkBoyNY (1,800)
JohnnJohn posts the small blind of 30
MYLOSS posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JDK0806 [Qh Qd]
lefty6226 folds
SharkBoyNY raises to 210
JDK0806 raises to 1,140, and is all in
temujin folds
JohnnJohn folds
MYLOSS folds
SharkBoyNY calls 930
JDK0806 shows [Qh Qd]
SharkBoyNY shows [Jd Jh]
*** FLOP *** [Js 5d 5s]
*** TURN *** [Js 5d 5s] J♣
*** RIVER *** [Js 5d 5s Jc] 4♦
JDK0806 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
SharkBoyNY shows four of a kind, Jacks
SharkBoyNY wins the pot (2,370) with four of a kind, Jacks
JDK0806 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,370 | Rake 0
Board: [Js 5d 5s Jc 4d]
Seat 1: JDK0806 showed [Qh Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 2: temujin (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: JohnnJohn (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: MYLOSS (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: lefty6226 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: SharkBoyNY showed [Jd Jh] and won (2,370) with four of a kind, Jacks

yea but you still profited in it and now you can either drop down a level or start over if you wish right?

Yup, even after the loss my bankroll got a boost of about 90$. I decided to just use the profit to up my SnG stakes from my normal 6.50 game to 12.00 games and play in my bankroll now. I hopped in a 12.00 right after and won all the money back so I'm at +120.00 from the experiment and the up in bankroll.

Overall, it was a great two days of poker for me. I'll be doing this probably twice a week, committing two buy-ins of 6.50 games. If I move on, I move on. If I don't, it's not a big deal. I'll play until I lose and hopefully make a decent profit most of the times.

I would recommend doing this for people who have a limited BR (Or at least limited on the poker sites) and feel they are better players than their buy-ins suggests. If you're running well the day you try this you could make a MAJOR profit, but if you're running poorly, you lose 5 to 15 bucks... big deal.

Another positive to this "system" is that when your stakes elevate, your play elevates as well. As I went up the stakes I noticed that I tightened up in the early stages (Which I have been trying to do regardless) and thought through my hands more. It also kept me from multitabling and browsing the internet, keeping me more focused on my play. It's hard for me to keep focused while playing a 2 + .25 game, but in my 24 & 36 dollar games I was completely fixed on the game.

Thanks Storm for suggesting this, it was a lot of fun! =P

np glad it worked for you.

I'd be interested in seeing more results from a number of players. I remember when you started the cash game Rampage thread, some people had some success with it, but most didn't get very far. I'm happy to see JDK/less did well with it so far, but will others?

I'm a little slow, so forgive me if your math is confusing me. I understand what you are saying (but not the math, go figure) and I agree to a point. The step STTs that Brian is suggesting is not something you would do day in and day out. It is meant (there I go presuming) as something new to do once in a while and a good way to get some experience at higher limits.

Here's where I follow you: if you consistently win at 5$ sngs, then immediately buyin to a 10$ sng odds dictate that you will lose that 10$ sng more often then you win. If you follow normal BR methods, you should buy back into a 5$ sng(until you have a BR big enough to play 10$ games) - thus limiting the loss if you do lose. So over the long run your losses will be greater following the step method then in comparison to normal STT BR methods.

But the step method is not meant for the long run. In the short run, especially if you go on a heater - you make considerable money compared to grinding it out at the same level everyday. If I start with a 5$ game and win, I then move to a 10$ game. I win and move up a level to a 20$ game. At this point I have invested 5$ and won 51$. So my streak ends and I place third, netting 36$. I try again at the 20$, and lose - I decide I have had enough and go back to my normal level (5$).

I had won (net) 17$ in my original 5$ game. If I just continued playing at that level and won at the same rate as above, I would have netted 27$. Using the step method I won 43$ (a positive difference of 16$). In actuality, compared to what pigpen stated, you did not "lose" anything from our overall bankroll - instead we added to it while "experimenting".

As compared to the cash game step contest, I like this one a little more - as the STTs typically take longer to finish and there is a built in stop-loss (you cannot lose more than the buyin). If one does this twice a weekend and loses - you're only out eleven dollars. But there is a nice upside to it and I don't believe 11 dollars is a big hit to anyones BR who is properly staked to be playing 5$ sngs anyway.

I have an ROI of 51% after 208 games. At the 20+2 SNGs on FT I place in the money 59/109 games. That's like 57% of the time.

I might try one of these stepped, just to see if I can make 1000 dollars in 3 steps. That is with starting at a 20 of course.