Is it a slow-roll to show your hand last when you have the nuts?

PoKeRFoRNiA · Sep 7, 2013

Last night, I was at the casino again. I was accused of slow-rolling when I personally just wanted to see what he had.

I won't put the full hand history. But I had roughly $120 at $1/$2. (Just remember, cap buy-in is $100). I was dealt pocket Aces from small blind. Someone from mp raised to $12. I reraised it to $30. He flat-calls. Flop comes out Ah Jd 7c. I checked from a small blind, and he pushed all-in. I simply called. Turn and river were both blanks, random cards such as 6h 2d or something like that. It didn't matter. There was no straight or flush possibility, so I obviously have the nuts. But regardless, I wanted to see what he had.

Online, we don't have this problem because raiser or shover is the first one to show and online does all of that for you while the caller who lost the hand has an option to show or muck. He wanted me to roll over my hand first. I told him, "you're the raiser. so you're supposed to show first". He rolls over JQs spades. I roll over my set of Aces immediately right after he rolled over JQs. Table then says "oooooohhh, wow" then he follows it by saying that I slow-rolled. Wtf? I wanted to know what he raised and called my raise with so that I can get notes on the guy. Is that wrong? Is that considered slow-rolling? Is it that if you always have the nuts, then you have to roll it over right away after you call all-in? Maybe I'm missing some etiquette here but I think my table is full of morons who don't even know the meaning of slow-rolling or don't take mental notes on players. For me, I love to see what people have as much as I can so that I get more information about their hand ranges.

BluffMeAllIn · Sep 7, 2013

nope, you did the right thing IMO you wanted to get notes to see how the guy plays and if you had flipped over the winning hand right away then he would have just mucked.

I have played a bunch with a group of people in a home game and there is a guy who all the time used to want the person who called to show their cards. Sometimes I do, doesn't bother me but in a specific situation, i don't recall all of the details but there was betting and calling most all of the way (i was mainly the agressor and he was just calling). So I checked on the river, he pushed (I tanked for a couple of minutes) and called.

He just sat there waiting for me to turn over my hand, but i did not until he did. Seemed like it took forever but he did turn it over and he was chasing a straight all the way if I recall, he had made mention of me probably having hooked something with shit cards. I turned over the AK to win the pot with AK high and it felt really good, kinda put him in his place (as thought everyone else at the table also because its common that he does it).

So yeah if you want a read then you need to gather information and can't get the info without seeing the cards someone is playing.

PoKeRFoRNiA · Sep 7, 2013

BluffMeAllIn said:
nope, you did the right thing IMO you wanted to get notes to see how the guy plays and if you had flipped over the winning hand right away then he would have just mucked.

I have played a bunch with a group of people in a home game and there is a guy who all the time used to want the person who called to show their cards. Sometimes I do, doesn't bother me but in a specific situation, i don't recall all of the details but there was betting and calling most all of the way (i was mainly the agressor and he was just calling). So I checked on the river, he pushed (I tanked for a couple of minutes) and called.

He just sat there waiting for me to turn over my hand, but i did not until he did. Seemed like it took forever but he did turn it over and he was chasing a straight all the way if I recall, he had made mention of me probably having hooked something with shit cards. I turned over the AK to win the pot with AK high and it felt really good, kinda put him in his place (as thought everyone else at the table also because its common that he does it).

So yeah if you want a read then you need to gather information and can't get the info without seeing the cards someone is playing.

Nice call with AK high btw. Ace high calls that wins the pot is prolly the best adrenaline win you can get because it took skills to read the person and you won it fair and square. Next best adrenaline you get is what you suckout through runner-runner or pull 1-2 outer that you're saved by the bell.

But yeah. I was curious wtf he called my raise with when he only has 4:1 implied odds of getting my stack. I wanted to see if he had a pair, AQ, AK, etc. He called 1/4 of my stack with JQs. It's a crucial information to note down that this player's calling range is really wide. Without the information of his JQs, I won't know what he calls raises with. It's just that anytime people don't instantly show their nut hands, they refer it to a slow-roll. I thought slow-rolling was taking your time to call an all-in bet with an absolute nuts while having nobody behind you left to act, or slowly revealing your cards one by one even after everyone has shown their cards(like the way Le Chiffre and James Bond were doing it to each other in Casino Royale).

vinnie · Sep 7, 2013

If you instantly showed your cards when he showed his, I would say this was not a slowroll. At the same time, it was bad live etiquette. If you know you have the best possible hand on the board, good etiquette requires you to just show your hand and allow the other player to save some face and muck.

You're playing $1/$2 with a 50xbb buy-in. This isn't a serious life-changing game. It is supposed to be a fun and light experience. Knowing what that player might shove with in that spot might be very, very small +EV. Honestly, with an SPR under 1.5, his shoving range is so wide as to be meaningless. But, demonstrating such poor etiquette probably has a large enough negative effect on the rest of the table, that it's overall -EV.

You've just shown the table that you're not there to have fun with them. You're there to win money and possibly embarrass them. They'll be less inclined to gamble it up with you, because they know you might force them to expose their bad play to the entire table.

hobonc · Sep 7, 2013

PoKeRFoRNiA said:
Last night, I was at the casino again. I was accused of slow-rolling when I personally just wanted to see what he had.

I won't put the full hand history. But I had roughly $120 at $1/$2. (Just remember, cap buy-in is $100). I was dealt pocket Aces from small blind. Someone from mp raised to $12. I reraised it to $30. He flat-calls. Flop comes out Ah Jd 7c. I checked from a small blind, and he pushed all-in. I simply called. Turn and river were both blanks, random cards such as 6h 2d or something like that. It didn't matter. There was no straight or flush possibility, so I obviously have the nuts. But regardless, I wanted to see what he had.

Online, we don't have this problem because raiser or shover is the first one to show and online does all of that for you while the caller who lost the hand has an option to show or muck. He wanted me to roll over my hand first. I told him, "you're the raiser. so you're supposed to show first". He rolls over JQs spades. I roll over my set of Aces immediately right after he rolled over JQs. Table then says "oooooohhh, wow" then he follows it by saying that I slow-rolled. Wtf? I wanted to know what he raised and called my raise with so that I can get notes on the guy. Is that wrong? Is that considered slow-rolling? Is it that if you always have the nuts, then you have to roll it over right away after you call all-in? Maybe I'm missing some etiquette here but I think my table is full of morons who don't even know the meaning of slow-rolling or don't take mental notes on players. For me, I love to see what people have as much as I can so that I get more information about their hand ranges.

Actually online, and in the wsop it would be the small blind who must show 1st just like any other action. Then subsequent hands would show, or muck, as action moves around table.

marcumx · Sep 7, 2013

he's obviously a sore loser or an idiot. if u was to check/call down to the river, that would be slow rolling. Now at my casino they do have a rule against checking on the river if you got the nuts. I got a three hand penalty in a tourney for checking a boat hoping he was going to bet.

PoKeRFoRNiA · Sep 7, 2013

hobonc said:
Actually online, and in the WSOP it would be the small blind who must show 1st just like any other action. Then subsequent hands would show, or muck, as action moves around table.

The showdown showing order where small blind shows first only applies if everything has been checked around on the river. But it's always the raiser of the street where action ended who shows first.

PoKeRFoRNiA · Sep 7, 2013

vinnie said:
If you instantly showed your cards when he showed his, I would say this was not a slowroll. At the same time, it was bad live etiquette. If you know you have the best possible hand on the board, good etiquette requires you to just show your hand and allow the other player to save some face and muck.

You're playing $1/$2 with a 50xbb buy-in. This isn't a serious life-changing game. It is supposed to be a fun and light experience. Knowing what that player might shove with in that spot might be very, very small +EV. Honestly, with an SPR under 1.5, his shoving range is so wide as to be meaningless. But, demonstrating such poor etiquette probably has a large enough negative effect on the rest of the table, that it's overall -EV.

You've just shown the table that you're not there to have fun with them. You're there to win money and possibly embarrass them. They'll be less inclined to gamble it up with you, because they know you might force them to expose their bad play to the entire table.

Now that, I may have done. I realized it after I got out of the table. After winning that hand and playing few more hands before I reach the big blind, I didn't feel comfortable playing at that table any further. So before I hit my big blind, I just left. That being an -EV, I agree with.

I normally don't go there to have fun. I am somewhat serious about poker. I treat poker like a hobby and I try to build a bankroll now. Last year, I profited over $1500 that took care of my trip expenses to Korea. This year, I'm thinking about taking poker seriously. I started off with a bankroll of $5k(50 buy-ins of $1/$2) and I'm only up $500 in 3 weeks. It's not really much considering the time I've spent and since I can't imagine myself living off that. I want to slowly build up my bankroll. I read "Treat Poker like a Business" by Leatherass9 and I take poker seriously, especially against people I don't even know. I am working towards building it up and move up. If I am playing against my friends or cc games for fun, then I wouldn't have done that. But yesterday and before, I always took poker seriously and showed no mercy in having them reveal their hands as every hand gives me information about their ranges. But like you said, long-term -EV is what I didn't see, that everyone is eyeing me and will try to sharpen up against me only, which is -EV. I guess I'll just show the cards and get information from them through other hands. That one hand really made me uncomfortable to stick around and play, where I missed out on great opportunity to win more money since there were lot of donks at that table. I missed out on revenue and profit.

vinnie · Sep 7, 2013

The trick is to make the other players believe you're there just to have fun and gamble a little. You may be very serious and intent on making a profit from the game, but you want to come off as someone who isn't taking it too seriously.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

dmorris68 · Sep 7, 2013

studaddy420 said:
he's obviously a sore loser or an idiot. if u was to check/call down to the river, that would be slow rolling. Now at my casino they do have a rule against checking on the river if you got the nuts. I got a three hand penalty in a tourney for checking a boat hoping he was going to bet.

1. Check calling to the river is not a slow roll
2. Your penalty story doesn't make sense as told. The penalty for not betting the nuts on river is when you're last to act. If you checked to induce a bet, you weren't last to act and thus not subject to a penalty.

Zorba · Sep 7, 2013

I don't see it as slow rolling, the caller always shows last.

jcdagenius · Sep 7, 2013

lol.......I don't take a slow roll for anything anymore... it means nothing to me or my game....I don't play emotions into bs at the table,,,,it just hurts the game...I don't think it was a slowroll...always a better hand then your opponents ....so if he was aware he should know you could have the nuts .....

pocketacesa1 · Sep 8, 2013

If you have the nuts, just flip first, dont get peoples hopes up. Unless they are your mortal enemy, that is

S3mper · Sep 8, 2013

I think that if players go all in before the river both players should have to flip their cards up like in a tournament... I hate not knowing what I need to sweat against..

I was playing live and four people were in a pot and they all went all in on the flop, flop came 223 one guy had AA with his hand shown 2 other guys had nothing and one had his hand face down.. when the flop hits the guy goes you guys might as well give up now so everyone thinks he has a 2... turn brings an A and the guy with AA was so happy he was like "dealer your getting such a big tip" river a blank guy flips up quad deuces... I think that's a slow roll

Also the rule about checking down the best hand is IMO stupid... what if I mis read my hand? I'm going to get penalized? Also... If I'm against the guy with the nuts let him check the river!!! IDC sure nasty slow roll but better then losing more chips.
Also if your the last aggressor you should know your first to flip your hand up if you don't want to show then muck your hand so I can muck my hand. your situation is not a slow roll you paid to see his cards so he has to show if he doesn't show then he shouldn't get a look at your cards..

Phil Hellmuth does this all the time he will bluff the river get called and go you got it... and whine if the other player doesn't show his cards before him going on an on about bad etiquette... this coming from a guy who berates other players and tanks for TV time ridiculous...

PoKeRFoRNiA · Sep 8, 2013

S3mper said:
I think that if players go all in before the river both players should have to flip their cards up like in a tournament... I hate not knowing what I need to sweat against..

I was playing live and four people were in a pot and they all went all in on the flop, flop came 223 one guy had AA with his hand shown 2 other guys had nothing and one had his hand face down.. when the flop hits the guy goes you guys might as well give up now so everyone thinks he has a 2... turn brings an A and the guy with AA was so happy he was like "dealer your getting such a big tip" river a blank guy flips up quad deuces... I think that's a slow roll

Also the rule about checking down the best hand is IMO stupid... what if I mis read my hand? I'm going to get penalized? Also... If I'm against the guy with the nuts let him check the river!!! IDC sure nasty slow roll but better then losing more chips.
Also if your the last aggressor you should know your first to flip your hand up if you don't want to show then muck your hand so I can muck my hand. your situation is not a slow roll you paid to see his cards so he has to show if he doesn't show then he shouldn't get a look at your cards..

Phil Hellmuth does this all the time he will bluff the river get called and go you got it... and whine if the other player doesn't show his cards before him going on an on about bad etiquette... this coming from a guy who berates other players and tanks for TV time ridiculous...

Hellmuth vs Bellande: A Lesson on Poker Etiquette - YouTube

Your case and mine was different. In your case, the guy with deuces didn't roll it over right away even after everyone has rolled it over. If it's pre-flop all-in, I just roll it over. In my case, I was willing to roll it over if the guy was willing to roll it over. For me, it was just matter of getting information about his hand range and how he plays on the flop with what kind of hand. But like vinnie said, it's just such a small +EV but comes with many negative impact and image towards me that it's a long-term -EV to do so. I do conclude that it wasn't a slow-roll but it was bad live etiquette if I have the nuts.

However, I disagree with Hellmuth. Bellande didn't have a monster or nuts. He made a marginal call. He doesn't really want to show his hand because it reveals lot of information about himself to Phil and other players at the table too because it reveals that Bellande calls with marginal hands. He just wants it to be fair that Phil also reveals his hand, which then Bellande also knows that Phil likes to call with marginal hands oop with 78s, chases, and bluff on the river. If Phil mucked, then Bellande wins the pot and he can muck also.

Phil only likes to whine and cry when things don't go the way he wants it to be. Him talking about etiquette has to be a joke. His brat action of whining and berating other players is a bad poker etiquette.

RamdeeBen · Sep 8, 2013

This doesn't make sense. When the chips go all-in and is called by another player on the flop, both players turn over their hands on the flop and the turn/river are dealt by the dealer with both hands being face up..and then the turn/river are dealt.

Are you seriously saying the turn/river was dealt without either of you knowing who had what and you both just tabled your hands after the river was dealt?

Dealer should not deal any turn/river until the shover and caller both turn over the cards so it really makes no sense.

S3mper · Sep 8, 2013

ramdeebam said:
This doesn't make sense. When the chips go all-in and is called by another player on the flop, both players turn over their hands on the flop and the turn/river are dealt by the dealer with both hands being face up..and then the turn/river are dealt.

Are you seriously saying the turn/river was dealt without either of you knowing who had what and you both just tabled your hands after the river was dealt?

Dealer should not deal any turn/river until the shover and caller both turn over the cards so it really makes no sense.

In cash games you don't have to show when all in intill showdown

nomadnative · Sep 8, 2013

Slow roll?

The villain initiated the final action, so he should be first to show. If the betting went on for multiple streets and the river went check check, then SB shows up first because he is first to act.

Live against a straight forward opponent I would tend to just show up as soon as the money goes in just to keep the table friendly. If the guy just made a horrible move I'd probably buy him a drink if he re-buys. I don't need to see his cards.

However; it does seem like this guys a little loose. I would insist on seeing his hand. In this case, knowing he will shove with marginal hands in position to a seemingly weak flop play is valuable information. Also, these types of players will tend to tilt and get worse if you make them show up bad plays in front of everyone.

I often will call small river bets with garbage just because somebody played a strange line and I want to see what he had. If they slow roll there I get pretty pissed.

I think you did the right thing and he showed you a very exploitable line of play for the future.

PoKeRFoRNiA · Sep 10, 2013

ramdeebam said:
This doesn't make sense. When the chips go all-in and is called by another player on the flop, both players turn over their hands on the flop and the turn/river are dealt by the dealer with both hands being face up..and then the turn/river are dealt.

Are you seriously saying the turn/river was dealt without either of you knowing who had what and you both just tabled your hands after the river was dealt?

Dealer should not deal any turn/river until the shover and caller both turn over the cards so it really makes no sense.

We can show our hands after the showdown. At least for California casinos. I go to Hollywood Park casino. We can show our hands before future streets are dealt if we want but it's not required.

I think only tournaments, you have to show your hand if money went in with future streets left to be dealt. If I recall in cash games online for pokerstars, it's the same also.

Is it a slow-roll to show your hand last when you have the nuts?

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