RULING IN A LIVE TOURNAMENT IN CASINO

HI, i was playing a £50 freezeout tounament yesterday which also gave 1 rebuy and 1 add on..

it was the last hand before the add on... 3 players went all in... and i looked at my cards a.. and the guy oposite me said i showed them to the guy on my right who was playing .. i said no i didnt the guy next to me said he saw them... so they called the manager and he came asked the dealer if he saw anything which he relied no.. and than the manager said i had to give up my hand which was ace king suited which would have won the pot... if this fair or not

When you were in school, were you also in the habit of put two or three full stops after every sentence? I assume if you did that you would probably end up failing after the third grade.

Marginal said:

When you were in school, were you also in the habit of put two or three full stops after ever sentence? I assume if you did that you would probably end up failing after the third grade.

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What do you mean by "ever sentence"? Is this new English?

No idea what you are talking about, please do not edit my quotes with foolishness.

sorry about my grammer

i am not writing a book, its my style of writing and i hope you understand and can we not go off topic here with who's english is going to win a nobel peace [prize and answer my question if you can many thanks

I like punctuation marks in my sentences. Allows the reader to know when to pause.

As for the ruling, everyone said you showed the guy your cards. I think it is a very standard ruling.

Grammactical errors aside, I'll tackle the question at hand.

In a live game, it is your resposibility to protect your cards. Whether it is by using a card protector of some sort so that they are not accidentally mucked, or making sure that no other players at the table can see them, the responsibility rides solely on your shoulders. It doesn't matter if you meant for the guy to see your cards or not; you were not protecting your cards properly. So the short answer is, yes, it was a fair ruling.

While you might not think it your style of writing does makes you hard to understand. I had to read your original post over a bunch of times to work out what actually happened. Please give serious consideration to using actual sentences.

Moving on, the floor's decision strikes me as a strange one. The action you've described certainly doesn't fall into any of the standard categories for declaring a hand dead (see Robert's Rules section 3, Dead Hands).

After a quick scan through I can't find any sections of Robert's Rules that deal specifically with the situation but usually you'd expect the cards to play and for a penalty (if required) to be imposed after the hand is completed.

It's your responsibility to ensure that your cards aren't revealed. Section 3, Irregularities, Rule 12 of Robert's Rules specifically says that a card flashed by a player will play. I believe that rule is intended for someone who deliberately shows one of their cards to the whole table, as opposed to your situation where you negligently showed your cards to one player, but it could be applied.

The only thing I can suggest is that there's a house rule at this particular casino that goes against the normal rules, or that you've fallen afoul of poker's number one rule:

OzExorcist said:

the floor's decision strikes me as a strange one.

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I agree!

To the OP, was this determination made before action moved past you? If so, the very worst that should have happened was you be forced to show your cards to the rest of the table as well. But it didn't even have to get to that.

When it was clear that the manager was going to muck your hand, ask the player on your right to reveal to the rest of the table what your hand supposedly was. The manager could easily enough verify whether or not he was correct. If he was wrong, you play. If he was right, then if action had not passed you, you reveal your cards to the table; if action had passed you, then your hand is dead.

Honestly, if I see you counting your chips contemplating how big of a raise you want to make, all I have to do is get my buddy to claim that he saw your cards and then you have to muck them? With no proof? When proof can be so easily verified or refuted? That's too fishy for my liking and I'd never set foot in that establishment again.

But all said, the house makes the final determination. Well, actually, you do by choosing whether to play there again or not. It sounds to me like there could have been some other choices made. Sometimes you have to help the management come to the right one!

there is nothing wrong with your writing, this type of incident will probably never happen you again, u must protect your cards

I love how non-English speaking people get on here and sites like these and tell other non-English speaking people that there is nothing wrong with their English.

Deadly Silent said:

I love how non-English speaking people get on here and sites like these and tell other non-English speaking people that there is nothing wrong with their English.

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This made me LOL.

Yeah I dunno about that ruling, cuz it seems like you could just say you saw someones cards to get them out of the hand lol. The house has the final rule I guess. Did the guy have to tell management what your cards were or anything, or did management just take his word for it?

p_for_pro said:

HI, i was playing a £50 freezeout tounament yesterday which also gave 1 rebuy and 1 add on..

it was the last hand before the add on... 3 players went all in... and i looked at my cards a.. and the guy oposite me said i showed them to the guy on my right who was playing .. i said no i didnt the guy next to me said he saw them... so they called the manager and he came asked the dealer if he saw anything which he relied no.. and than the manager said i had to give up my hand which was ace king suited which would have won the pot... if this fair or not

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Lets forget about the ruling for a moment.

What is clear is that you managed to hold your cards in such a way that not only did the guy next to you see them, the guy opposite realised that the guy next to you had seen them.

Next time you need to protect your cards a bit more.

Stu_Ungar said:

Lets forget about the ruling for a moment.

What is clear is that you managed to hold your cards in such a way that not only did the guy next to you see them, the guy opposite realised that the guy next to you had seen them.

Next time you need to protect your cards a bit more.

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Good point!

p_for_pro said:

HI, i was playing a £50 freezeout tounament yesterday which also gave 1 rebuy and 1 add on..

it was the last hand before the add on... 3 players went all in... and i looked at my cards a.. and the guy oposite me said i showed them to the guy on my right who was playing .. i said no i didnt the guy next to me said he saw them... so they called the manager and he came asked the dealer if he saw anything which he relied no.. and than the manager said i had to give up my hand which was ace king suited which would have won the pot... if this fair or not

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Why in the hell are you holding your cards up in the middle of a hand? Or were you? Did they come up off the table? Do you need to get better at looking at your cards so you're the only one seeing them?
Kind of weird that they got mucked. I could see having to show everyone (show one, show all) and playing it through, but the establishment gets the final say.
Why do I have the feeling there is a little more to this?

Why in the hell are you holding your cards up in the middle of a hand? Or were you? Did they come up off the table? Do you need to get better at looking at your cards so you're the only one seeing them?
Kind of weird that they got mucked. I could see having to show everyone (show one, show all) and playing it through, but the establishment gets the final say.
Why do I have the feeling there is a little more to this?

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thank you for all your feed back i learnt a big lesson and i wont make the same mistake again...

and well there is more to it.. i didnt want to look stupid so didnt mention before .. but when i saw 2 people going all in before me... i looked at my cards and i didnt relize the guy next to had not folded his hand so i sort of showed him ... :/ i was actually going to fold them anyway ... lol i have learnt alot about poker since and wont be making stupid mistakes liek this i hope not please wish me well... im pretty serious about poker

MediaBLITZ said:

Why do I have the feeling there is a little more to this?

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Good read! I bet that comes in handy on the tables. Nicely done.

p_for_pro said:

so i sort of showed him

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Based on what you had told us previously, I thought the casino/floor manager was being a bit unfair. But now that we know the full account, I think most will agree that they absolutely made the right decision. As you said, live and learn!

p_for_pro said:

was actually going to fold them anyway

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Then why waste everyone's time to have a manager come over and go through all of that if you were just going to fold? If he had ruled in your favor, would you have then said, "Thanks but no thanks. I'm folding anyhow." That's a good way to make some enemies at the table. You're actually really lucky that it didn't go down like that!

Good luck to you!

BTW, never show your cards to someone even if he is out of the game. People out of the game can still give signals, glances, make comments, etc. No one should see your cards but you.

p_for_pro said:

thank you for all your feed back i learnt a big lesson and i wont make the same mistake again...

and well there is more to it.. i didnt want to look stupid so didnt mention before .. but when i saw 2 people going all in before me... i looked at my cards and i didnt relize the guy next to had not folded his hand so i sort of showed him ... :/ i was actually going to fold them anyway ... lol i have learnt alot about poker since and wont be making stupid mistakes liek this i hope not please wish me well... im pretty serious about poker

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Kudos to you for fessing up. Probably everyone here has pulled the old "look at this monster hand I am going to lay down because these guys are going on a shove fest" routine. Not at all uncommon.

And yes, it does come in handy at the table and even almost overcomes my math impaired side

Well I just had a F'ed up ruling at Harrah's last night.

I was just BB. Checked, flopped top 2 pair, went to showdown and won the pot knocking the SB out who shoved after the flop (bottom 2 pair).

Dealer deals the next hand, looks at me and says I'm BB by myself. I put my chips out and go, "Wait a minute, I was just BB". Dealer says I wasn't (he failed to move the button). I say, Yeah, I had to be because I sure as hell would not have played those cards UTG and I remember checking my option. One other guy jumps in and verified, yes he (me) was just the BB.

Ruling - my BB is out there and the cards are out so it stays the way it is!
Once I got the button I stole my shit back - lol.

the times i've played and accidently put my chips out for BB ... and it wasnt my turn it was just a genuine mistake and they would give them back i dont see how they could do that any ways thats from my experiance someone never moved the button which is the dealers responisibily

The dealer did say, "My fault, my mistake, but it stays the way it is"

I said oh well as long as you are taking the blame and I take the consequences I'm good with it

harrahs where?

Ranny said:

harrahs where?

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Kansas City

MediaBLITZ said:

The dealer did say, "My fault, my mistake, but it stays the way it is"

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That is a rough ruling. I know the floor managers see a lot, so sometimes they just stick with the general rule, no matter what. His rule is probably something like this: If the player puts the money down, the player cannot dispute putting the money down. Like you said, at least the dealer was cool about it. We're all human. Glad to hear you got your BB back to boot!

MediaBLITZ said:

Ruling - my BB is out there and the cards are out so it stays the way it is!

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Had anyone acted on their hand yet?

I can see this being messy if, say, the player who was supposed to be the big blind had already looked at their cards and folded. Once two players have acted you are indeed stuck with the situation.

If nobody has acted yet though then the button being out of position is one of the situations that causes a misdeal (Robert's Rules section 3, Misdeals). Everyone gives their cards back, the button gets put in the right spot and you start over.

A mistake like this can be fixed easily, but only if it's picked up in time. FWIW I don't think this has anything to do with whether you had already put your chips out or not.