Ruling issue - please help

I played a live tourney last night when the following hand happened, I would like to know what you all think of the ruling made as I am still bothered by it.

14 left in tourney of 65 starters.

8 Handed, blinds 800/1600 ante 200.

I am 1 off button with 6000 chips

Look down at KQs and decide this is as good a spot as any to get my chips in once everyone folds to me.

Get very lucky as I hit a straight against the small blinds Aces all in.

Now here we go...

The dealer sorts things out and scoops chips my way, I look at it and say hold on, I don't have enough chips. The dealer had sorted out the chips (small blind had me well covered) and gave me 7800.

He called the tourney manager and the ruling was that 'as the dealer had started to ruffle the cards the last hand was dead and we move on'.

What do you think?

Where's Oz when you need him, lol. I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm sure he will.

Tell me that's 7800 above and beyond your 6000 chip stack? Either way house rules are hard to argue....especially when the manager get's involved!

NO, total returned to me was 7800, after posting ante I went all in with 5800

Going to our trusty copy of Robert's Rules we find the following:

Section 2 - House Policies.

1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

2. Decisions of the shift supervisor are final.

3. The proper time to draw attention to a mistake is when it occurs or is first noticed. Any delay may affect the ruling.

4. If an incorrect rule interpretation or decision by an employee is made in good faith, the establishment has no liability.

5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.

6. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, and the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been observed, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.

So... starting from the top: management's decision is final, even if they make a bad decision. Which is really the end of the discussion, unfortunately. But let's say at some point in the future you come across the same situation with a TD that's not predisposed to making awful decisions:

Assuming you brought the problem up as soon as the pot was shipped to you, you've satisfied rules 3 and 5 that say you need to bring the issue up before the start of the next hand. If you've done that the dealer is supposed to stop and wait until a ruling is made by the tournament director.

Once the TD arrives, under rule 6 they should be able to reconstruct the pot correctly and ship the right amount to you. In this case it should be easy: everybody's blinds and antes, plus your chips and whatever else the small blind needed to put in to call. Then everybody can get on with the game.

Of course, it's the dealer's responsibility to make sure the pot is made right before the board cards are dealt and that's where the real fault lies. Unfortunately though this is just one of those spots where if the dealer and TD both choose to make a bad call then there's nothing we can do about it except remember not to play there again.

Great reply, thank you OZ.

Pity it was at Dusk Till Dawn, the 'Premier' poker venue in the UK and the only live venue apart from my mates house I play.

I did bring it to the attention of the deler as soon as I stsrted counting my chips, he was ruffling cards at the time and had not dealt and no antes had even been posted.

Just mad really

Even if they've already started the shuffle for the next hand though I think they should be able to stop and fix an error like this. The "first riffle" provision is mostly for disputes about the outcome of a hand. It's first there because in disputes about who won a hand, once the next shuffle has been started there's pretty much no chance of reconstituting the deck as it was on the previous hand to confirm who really did or didn't have a given hand.

Nobody's disputing the outcome of your hand though - just the size of the final pot. That being the case there shouldn't be anything stopping the dealer from stopping the shuffle and waiting for a ruling to be made, other than blind adherence to a rule that only half applies and that they obviously don't understand properly. Rule 1 clearly states the technical rules can be bent in the interests of fairness and I think this is a pretty obvious spot to be doing that. Acknowledging that an error has been made but then forging ahead just because "OMGZ there was a first riffle" seems stupid to me.

Agreed, I feel that as it is a fairly low buy in tourney £25, they give the rookie dealers and TD to this tourney.

I did get the impression that they just wanted to get it done and get on with it.

DTD are usually pretty good on this stuff but as described that's a lousy ruling.

So the way i figure it the SB made a profit on the hand.

How could they not figure that one out?

Antes 1600
BB 1600
Your All In 5800
SB call 800+5000
_____
Total 14,800

Pot awarded 7800

Error in favor of the SB 7000

So let's say he started with 10,000. Less 1000 for blinds and ante=9000 (This would be result if he had if he had folded) But, when all was said and done he must have had around 11,000 chips.

Not bad for losing

1 -are you sure you had 5800 left ?

even if the small blind doesnt complete the blind there should have been 9800 in the pot...1600+800+1600 antes+5800

2 - its the dealers job to make sure chip counts are proper...but its your job to make sure he does his job...

I have written to DTD and received a reply from Simon Trumper to the effect that the TD had been advised that in the interests of fairness he could have reconstructed the pot to allocate the correct amount of chips and in future should look at this option instead of simple black and white rulings.

I am happy with his reply and in answer to the 2 posts above yes I had those starting chips and yes he made more than I did even though he lost the pot. My fault that I never insisted the dealer sorted the chips prior to showdown, this will not happen again.

I would also say that I am an honest guy and given the same situation, I would have reconstructed the pot myself and given the other guy the chips he had owed.

Did he make good on it or did you just get the apology? May be a free buy in to a cheap tourney?

No and I don't need it, I just expect a fair game when I play.

WOW... that is ridiculous!

I can't see how you wouldn't get your buyin refunded & I wouldn't settle for less. Sure people make mistakes but come on.. that's a real rookie mistake there by the dealer.

Live poker is rigged...

What did the SB say? Did you ask him/her if there was a mistake? When you announced all in did the dealer not say how much you were in for? Did you say? Did anyone else at the table have an opinion on your complaint? I'm confused how you could have let this happen without getting proper clarification of how the hand played out. I would have gone a ape shit.

SB remained quiet, 1 other on the table suggested a count up and was trying to sort with me as to how many chips I had at the start etc, needless to say I just tried to get the thing resolved at the time and when the TD makes a ruling what you gonna do?

Things like this happen all the time, you just expect a fair ruling and that is what I feel I will get next time.

... had you tipped the dealer?

Sorry, from a different thread but seemed appropriate

If not I'd be tipping him right on 'is azz!

Yeah, tip the dealer. Same way you tip cows.......