Rule question?

#1 3rd October 2010, 8:15 AM

Hello, I have a rule question that I observed in a local card room today…the floor eventually had to rule on this one and I disagree with his ruling – even though I wasn’t involved in the hand, I want to see what the community thinks about it.
The game is NL hold’em and the blinds are 300 and 600.
Seat 2 is the BB, seat 4 raises to 2400. Seat 7 flat calls the 2400. Seat 2 pushed all in for 3600. Here is the question: Is seat 4 allowed to re-raise?
The floor ruled that, yes seat 4 can re-raise. According to the floor, since the all-in is greater than ½ the amount needed for a complete raise (4200) – seat 4 can raise the bet again if desired.
I have two main problems with this ruling:
1. If this is the case, hypothetically speaking, what if seat 4 verbalized raise after the all-in? How much does he have to make it? Is it 4200, is it 6000, or is it 5400 (3600 + 1800)? This, I believe illustrates my point and shows the flaw in the floors ruling.

2. If you look at this hand from an overview it also looks funny. Seat 4 raised the bet by 1800 to 2400 total; we all know the next minimum raise is 4200. The all-in is only 3600, so if seat 4 is allowed to raise the hand plays out as follows: Seat 4 raise, seat 7 call, seat 2 all-in (for less than full bet), and seat 4 re-raise. The only two raises both came from seat 4, meaning that seat 4 re-raised himself, something we all know is illegal.

I know for a fact that on FTP seat 4 cannot raise. That being said, house rules are house rules – any thoughts?
Josh

#2 3rd October 2010, 10:21 AM

IMO, and the rule where I play, seat 4 can raise anything over the 1200 that he needs to call the BB with, even all in if he wants to push seat 7 off the hand. As you say, house rules are house rules.

BTW, as I read it there is a raise by Seat 4 to 2400 ( 3 x BB) then another raise by the BB up to 3600 after the call by seat 7.
I don't understand that the next raise after seat 4's raise must be at least 4200. I thought that only the first raiser has a minimum raise and that is at least double the big blind at that time.

Anyway, that's my two bobs worth.

#3 3rd October 2010, 3:48 PM

Ugh - that's a mistake and a depressingly common one. The half-size rule is for limit hold 'em. In a no limit game the all-in bet has to at least constitute a full sized raise to reopen the betting. Anything less than a full raise and the players who've already acted (seats 4 and 7 in this case) can only call or fold.

From Robert's Rules, Section 14, No Limit rules:

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

#4 3rd October 2010, 4:42 PM

Oz says it all. They should only be able to call the all-in, then after the flop they are heads up for any side pot that developes. Good question and answers I think.

Good day and Good luck

Yota

#5 3rd October 2010, 4:47 PM

OZ pretty muched summed it up...playes call for the extra 1200 or fold...if the allin was 4200 or greater, then bettin would be opened back up and original raiser would be allowed to reraise...

#6 4th October 2010, 5:03 AM

Yeah I can't agree more.

I was playing poker again today at the same casino and word had gotten around about the hand from yesterday. I again explained my position, and had about 50% of the dealers agree with me.

One of the other players pointed out the "house rules" sign, which, among other things, states the following:

"The half-bet rule applies"

It does not specify a game type, but that was the floor ruling, that a raise was possible - If I was the guy that had smooth called from seat 7 I would be livid - but luckily the guy was a donkey and didn't understand what we were all complaining about anyway.

Thanks,

Josh

#7 4th October 2010, 5:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzExorcist

Ugh - that's a mistake and a depressingly common one. The half-size rule is for limit hold 'em. In a no limit game the all-in bet has to at least constitute a full sized raise to reopen the betting. Anything less than a full raise and the players who've already acted (seats 4 and 7 in this case) can only call or fold.

From Robert's Rules, Section 14, No Limit rules:

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 300. A player who has already acted and is not facing a fullsize wager may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the minimum bet or less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

Damn Oz beat me to it yes this is correct they ruled in a NL game a Limit rule.

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