Rigged: The AA test

#**491** 27-09-2008, 3:21 PM

here's an example of a situation where you dont want to have aces and where it could be not rigged but lets say ''shuffled''

4-people poker game 25$ each + possible rebuys, the very, very first hand, im on the button, so i shuffle the cards, and i get Ad4d, sb has AA

flop is QJK all diamonds, i check, sb checks, turn is 10 of clubs, i check sb checks, river is 2 of spades...

i manage to get sb all-in.. he was thinking afterwards that i did some tricks with the cards

morale : shit happens live and online

#**492** 28-09-2008, 9:25 AM

Hello
My question
What will you do if you know the action your in is rigged?
Will you stop playin at the moment or will you stop playin on this
pokerroom your in? What is to do? Or is it all happen like this is live...
Cu

#**493** 28-09-2008, 6:25 PM

Okay I've just wasted the last however many minutes of my life reading this. What did I get out of this thread? = Complete bafflement of how much so many of you play. 21000+ hands posted from some of you. How long does that take to play 21k hands? Are you people actually turning a profit from On-line poker?

I apologize for this being so off topic, but DAMM people. Do you ever actually get away from your computers?

#**494** 28-09-2008, 8:35 PM

well its obvious when someone loses with AA they are going to think someone is cheating or the game is " rigged. " a lot of anger comes with losing pocket Aces and why not, after all its the best hand preflop. however, i dont think fulltilt has rigged anything... just my thoughts on this...

#**495** 01-10-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uradonk406

rigged is right we all know how bad they steal from us we just havent found a way to prove it for sure...cant tell you how many times iv had a strong hand and got smoked by the one outer and see a huge pot go away... i say just keep pushin and prayin cuz thats all net poker is a lotto but we all love it right??

Random Number generators are an algorythym a amth problem and last i checked they tend to be repetitive in nature ...contain some type of pattern...or both so random i think not but keep believing it is .. that is why i only play freerolls on the net...you dont feed these shady bast......but i do wish you all well... and good luck at the felts

They steal from you? Who? Do you play against the poker site? How the hell are they stealing from you, if you are playing against other people? If it was rigged, you are still losing to another player, not the site itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadeth123

here's an example of a situation where you dont want to have aces and where it could be not rigged but lets say ''shuffled''

4-people poker game 25$ each + possible rebuys, the very, very first hand, im on the button, so i shuffle the cards, and i get Ad4d, sb has AA

flop is QJK all diamonds, i check, sb checks, turn is 10 of clubs, i check sb checks, river is 2 of spades...

i manage to get sb all-in.. he was thinking afterwards that i did some tricks with the cards

morale : shit happens live and online

If he checked the flop and turn with AA, then he deserves to lose. It is examples like this one that show us why not to slow play...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistahSaechao

well its obvious when someone loses with AA they are going to think someone is cheating or the game is " rigged. " a lot of anger comes with losing pocket Aces and why not, after all its the best hand preflop. however, i dont think fulltilt has rigged anything... just my thoughts on this...

Well it loses one out of five times. It wouldnt seem to me that the site was rigged just because I lost with the best starting hand in poker. People dont seem to realise that even the best starting hand in poker is still only an 80% favorite. It isnt a 99% favorite.

#**496** 04-10-2008, 6:28 AM

The only HH I have is the ones provided by the pokersite...one saves it to a file on my comp(fulltilt) and the other they email it to me(pokerstars)
How do I derive theses stats from those HH's?
Tx

#**497** 04-10-2008, 6:49 AM

adding my hands here

tourny = 42 AA out of 8314 hands
cash = 16 AA out of 3857 hands

#**498** 07-10-2008, 11:37 PM

I dont know about it being rigged but in my play I have lost with AA about 60% oh the time I prefer to have AK suited.

#**499** 08-10-2008, 12:00 AM

I asked earlier on, but recieved no reply.
can anyone tell me how to derive theses stats from FTP and/or Pokerstars hand histories?
Tx

#**500** 09-10-2008, 8:38 PM

i will have to start watching that. And how many times do those lovely aces or kings get busted with some crazy stuff like 2 pair 2's and 3's lol. I got a guy today trying to slow play pocket aces and I had a K,10 suited I got my 10 and my king took him out and he was so upset like I stole from him . oh well I do believe the whole on line poker thing is rigged though and I play at Bodog all the time.

#**501** 11-10-2008, 1:58 AM

it is funny how everyone says that online poker is rigged because u cant see the person and u take a bad beat. i dont think is rigged but i had seen some gross flops and come across a few people that obv have a program as well as crazy play by knucklheads that work more often than not.

#**502** 11-10-2008, 2:05 AM

Sorry for the delay my friends. Between work, soccer and fighting for plasma time I haven't had much time to keep up with this thread. I promise to update this this weekend though. I'll get to you deadhxc.

#**503** 11-10-2008, 6:31 PM

i have heard the term "action cards" alot in my years playin online poker.
If there is any riggin goin on one thing i have noticed is how the short stacks seem to be the ones pushed out late in tourneys.
the quicker a guy gets knocked out the quicker he will jump into another event.....but thats just my opinon.
there was a article done about full tilt...when i find it i will post it....u might not like what u hear.

#**504** 11-10-2008, 6:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHN-E-FLUSH

i have heard the term "action cards" alot in my years playin online poker.
If there is any riggin goin on one thing i have noticed is how the short stacks seem to be the ones pushed out late in tourneys.
the quicker a guy gets knocked out the quicker he will jump into another event.....but thats just my opinon.
there was a article done about full tilt...when i find it i will post it....u might not like what u hear.

i found it..it was a private audit done on tilts software....its on the later portion of this apcw video

YouTube - APCW Perspectives Weekly - February 29th, 2008

#**505** 13-10-2008, 1:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadhxc

adding my hands here

tourny = 42 AA out of 8314 hands
cash = 16 AA out of 3857 hands

Only taking the cash hands deadhxc. Also, I need to know what site these hands were played at.

#**506** 13-10-2008, 1:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOHN-E-FLUSH

If there is any riggin goin on one thing i have noticed is how the short stacks seem to be the ones pushed out late in tourneys.
the quicker a guy gets knocked out the quicker he will jump into another event.....but thats just my opinon.

Lol. You don't say, the short stacks huh? Hmm. Now that is weird. I wonder why that might be?

#**507** 13-10-2008, 1:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Four Dogs

Only taking the cash hands deadhxc. Also, I need to know what site these hands were played at.

k now its up to 29 out of 6778 hands all at full tilt

#**508** 13-10-2008, 9:23 PM

This thread got me to realize online poker IS rigged!!!!!

Pokerstars:
Hands - 112,433

AA - 444
(AA Expected) - 511

I'm running 13% shy on aces, who's got my 13%???

Oh wait....my kings have it

#**509** 13-10-2008, 11:49 PM

I think the "rigged" debate isnt about Aces, its about how many big hands occur.

There are always straights, flushes, draws on the turn, two pairs vs trips, full houses all the time. It isnt realistic. The river card matters 90% of the time. The short stack loses a showdown 90% of the time.

There are sometimes very unlikely runner-runner situations, and they happen a lot more than they do in real life.

I guarantee out of the next 5 times you hit trips on the flop, there will be a flush or straight draw by the turn at least 3 of the times.

#**510** 14-10-2008, 1:54 AM

What you are doing is agood idea to hopefully shut those crybabies up. But, i dont think the test is complete unless we track all the AAs on the tables. I am no statistician but i think i am on the right track here.

#**511** 14-10-2008, 2:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdafka

I asked earlier on, but recieved no reply.
can anyone tell me how to derive theses stats from Full Tilt Poker and/or Pokerstars hand histories?
Tx

You need to select the Save Poker Hand options at either Full Tilt or Poker Stars and use Poker Tracker or Poker Office.

#**512** 14-10-2008, 2:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadhxc

k now its up to 29 out of 6778 hands all at full tilt

Full Tilt, Good. Expected 30.67. Pretty close, but the Full Tilt Poker deviation is still way off. At this stage in the game 350,000 hands or so, Pokerstars had settled nicely into the lower 100ths of a percentage point, about where it is now. Full Tilt is still bouncing around a full 2% off. That's not good.

I see you Mase31683 but I'm just too damned tired to update another on tonight. I'll get back to to you. Thanks though.

"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. " ~Mark Twain

#**513** 14-10-2008, 8:39 AM

Well one things is for certain, both the 'Ultimate Bet' and 'Absolute Poker' Scandals definately added fuel to the fire of this debate i.m.o.

#**514** 14-10-2008, 10:12 AM

*sigh* i've read two pages of this thread and i'm done. I don't get the point are you trying to prove that AA is dealt more than it's suppose too or u trying to prove that sites are providing monster hands to multiple players in a hand to increase rake. Well, i'm sorry i don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but the way sites make their money is by the more people they get to sign up and deposit their money. If you notice everytime you log out from a site a message pops up on your computer screen with a referral program where you get money if you get others to sign up on their site and play a certain amount of hands. Also, first time deposit bonus that's how sites make their money. The more that play the more you make. Belive me I know, i've try a pyramid scheme before and the thing the company taught me is the more people that i approach the more chance i have of making money, the more people i have working under me the more i make money.
This is a cool thread, i would like to see that stats on getting AA or KK bc it seems some of you are determine to figure that out and that's awesome. But as far as an agrument toward poker being rig, you are not going to prove anything. and your not going to change some's opinion's about online poker being rig. there are some sore losers out there, actually a lot.
so can we please stop talking about rigging and actually play better poker.
thanks for your time

#**515** 14-10-2008, 5:40 PM

I love a challenge! Seriously, ChesterFlick, you need to lighten up...I rarely see posts bashing people. What exactly do dislike about Ultimatebet?

#**516** 15-10-2008, 4:26 PM

What many don't seem to understand is that software programs run online games and that randomness is easily manipulated. Tuning is the programmer's lingo for it. In fact I think I've read somewhere that the randomness is monitored and the randomness is adjusted if it isn't within the randomness "requirements" of the software.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbkmad

*sigh* i've read two pages of this thread and i'm done. I don't get the point are you trying to prove that AA is dealt more than it's suppose too or u trying to prove that sites are providing monster hands to multiple players in a hand to increase rake. Well, i'm sorry i don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but the way sites make their money is by the more people they get to sign up and deposit their money. If you notice everytime you log out from a site a message pops up on your computer screen with a referral program where you get money if you get others to sign up on their site and play a certain amount of hands. Also, first time deposit bonus that's how sites make their money. The more that play the more you make. Belive me I know, i've try a pyramid scheme before and the thing the company taught me is the more people that i approach the more chance i have of making money, the more people i have working under me the more i make money.
This is a cool thread, i would like to see that stats on getting AA or KK bc it seems some of you are determine to figure that out and that's awesome. But as far as an agrument toward poker being rig, you are not going to prove anything. and your not going to change some's opinion's about online poker being rig. there are some sore losers out there, actually a lot.
so can we please stop talking about rigging and actually play better poker.
thanks for your time

Rigging or expediency?

There's more to poker than AA and KK.

PokerStars Game 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Yogi (1110 in chips)
Seat 2: big (6360 in chips)
Seat 3: MARS (5520 in chips)
Seat 4: jamy (1460 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: Span (1250 in chips)
Seat 6: Miss (5400 in chips)
Seat 7: razor (2500 in chips)
Seat 8: Mario (1080 in chips)
Seat 9: qqq (1250 in chips)
razor227: posts small blind 15
Mario_10_J: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Yogi [Jh As]
qqq: folds
Yogi: raises 270 to 300
big: calls 300
MARS: folds
jamy: folds
Span: folds
Miss: folds
razor: calls 285
Mario: calls 270
*** FLOP *** [Jc Qc 4d]
razor: checks
Mario: bets 780 and is all-in
Yogi: raises 30 to 810 and is all-in
big: calls 810
razor: calls 810
*** TURN *** [Jc Qc 4d] 8♠
razor: checks
big: bets 5250 and is all-in
razor: calls 1390 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (3860) returned to big
*** RIVER *** [Jc Qc 4d 8s] A♣
*** SHOW DOWN ***
razor: shows [Ts 9s] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
big: shows [Js Qd] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
razor collected 2780 from side pot-2
Yogi: shows [Jh As] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
razor collected 90 from side pot-1
Mario: shows [Qs Ad] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
razor collected 4320 from main pot

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7190 Main pot 4320. Side pot-1 90. Side pot-2 2780. | Rake 0
Board [Jc Qc 4d 8s Ac]
Seat 1: showed [Jh As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 2: showed [Js Qd] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 3: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: (small blind) showed [Ts 9s] and won (7190) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 8: (big blind) showed [Qs Ad] and lost with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 9: folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Quote:

Originally Posted by odinscott

They steal from you? Who? Do you play against the poker site? How the hell are they stealing from you, if you are playing against other people? If it was rigged, you are still losing to another player, not the site itself.

It's called thrashing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_OG_Rocco

Well one things is for certain, both the 'Ultimate Bet' and 'Absolute Poker' Scandals definately added fuel to the fire of this debate i.m.o.

Now that's weird. My first posts and look who's here.

#**517** 15-10-2008, 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCFields

Now that's weird. My first posts and look who's here.

Ha! Small world eh?

#**518** 15-10-2008, 6:22 PM

I have been reading these post for some time now and just started my own test the other day. but instead of testing to see how many times i get dealt AA i am seeing how many times an A hits the board against 3 other random cards that i determined before i began my test. I have been getting some bad beats by people who never fold the ace and it will hit on the turn or the river so i wanted to see how it would compare. i will post my information here when i am finished with my results.

#**519** 15-10-2008, 6:45 PM

I don't know how many time's I have had pocket As, but i know I have lost more than I have won with them. There are to many draw's that can happen,I hope it's not rigged I love to play online poker. Don't have any home game's or a casino to play at. Good Luck All!!!

#**520** 16-10-2008, 4:54 PM

Site: FULLtilt
Number of ring hands: 17,216
Dealt AA: 66
Expected: 68
I am dealt AA: 1/261 hands
Wins: 83% app.
Pretty close to what odds say, 4 and a half to 1 favorite holding AA , winning 83% is pretty close

#**521** 17-10-2008, 1:22 AM

The AA or KK odds don't mean anything. The odds of getting multiple monster hands from one deal is what should concern online players. It seems players are lured, randomly of course, into all in situations.

#**522** 22-10-2008, 2:05 AM

for me it feels like that on ipoker tables there is always a lot of action that makes big pots and in cause of this a lot of rake too

#**523** 22-10-2008, 2:05 AM

thanks for posting this thresad four dogs! THe stats seem pretty close, so i would have to say that the poker sites Are not rigging the hands. This make sense because i don't think hte want any legal action. Correct?

#**524** 22-10-2008, 2:53 AM

From a data perspective, the numbers are pretty much near what is expected...win% would be skewed based on the players skill, agressiveness, etc. Also -don't rule the DONK factor....position etc...

Great thread,

Steve

#**525** 22-10-2008, 3:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mase31683

This thread got me to realize online poker IS rigged!!!!!

Pokerstars:
Hands - 112,433

AA - 444
(AA Expected) - 511

I'm running 13% shy on aces, who's got my 13%???

Oh wait....my kings have it

It seems as though lately all my posts to this thread have started out with an apology for taking so long to update the results. And this one is no different. Between work, kids, soccer, servicing my lovely wife and actually playing poker, there are just way too many demands apon my time to keep up with this thread the way all you fine folks diserve. But please be patient and I promise that every new contribution to our now extensive database will be adressed.

Mase, this is really an inter


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