Is it really possible online ?

Is it genuinely possible online to make a regular CONSISTENT income playing poker online ? Considering all the donk plays that go on hand after hand after hand i am becoming disillusioned by the prospect.

I know a lot will talk about skill, luck, blah blah, but truly, how does skill play a significant part in overcoming luck, when u are consistently battling donk calls, donk bluffs and just overall donk plays that there is no way in hell even a pro could figure out wot is going on ??

Many years ago i gave it a real hot go went from thinking it was possible to giving up and i've recently tried again - once more i had a good run and thought ok i might be able to do this, until i just met bad beat after bad beat and players who are happy to call u down to the river despite massive inverse odds against them etc etc.

I'm sure similar topics have been discussed but i just wanted to get opinion as to whether it is truly possible to make some type of income - and im not really talking about much, im just talking about some additional spending money CONSISTENTLY from playing online. I know a lot of people talk the talk but truly are they making consistent money ?

Thx for listening

I don't know the numbers, but of course there are. Some even make a good living at it.

I'm sure there are more losing players than winning players over the long haul.

In my opinion the only way to make a consistent living playing poker on line is to play at the very high stakes tournaments and ring games where a lot of money can be made and the donks are gone due to the stakes.

yes

yes. it's possible with a high bankroll and a high amount of skill.

I'd say yes, but it's really not as easy as a good player thinks it is. It takes a lot of will power to keep playing with good bankroll management, especially when you do hit those good runs and decide in the heat of the moment to bet big on the next game when you're on a roll, and then go on and lose the bankroll you worked so hard and long for, in the face of a donk or even someone who just outplayed you. It's definitely never going to be nearly as consistent as, say, a real job, and statistics do point out that the majority of people lose overall. If you think you have what it takes to be one of the winners, then by all means . . . but I think bankroll management is key for longterm, professional players.

The key to making money online is VOLUME. If you are a 60-40 favourite on a particular hand, you will lose 4 out of 10 times, meaning you need to have that situation come up tens of thousands of times to even out to winning 60% of the time. And that means a profit of only 20%.

That's why you see online pros playing 16-24 tables at a time for hours and hours. Its the only way to overcome the variance.

Yes people make consistent money online. Dusty Schmidt is a well known example and a member of this site.

OP, why do you think having bad players in your games make it harder to win? You want "donks" in your game. We make our money from other players mistakes. If you can't beat the "donks" in your game you won't beat the good players in higher games.

totally possible to make a consistent profit. Well, make that a profit - over th elonger term. You will have winning months and losing months, but the winning players will keep winning over time.

Volume is the key. THe more games you play, the more opportunities to smooth the variance out.

Also, if you want truly consistent earn, play small field SNG's. Over time you will have a smoother line.

And lastly, I won't define income here for OP. If by income yo umean profit, then yes. If by enough to live on, then you'd better be quite skilled, play an insane volume and play at least midstakes or higher.

FWIW Here is my tourney graph on the year. I removed the $$ figures, but you should see the insane amount of variance you get from MTT play. (Note there ar eall sorts of buyins in there as well as a slew of SNGs as well as big field MTT's and buyins from probably $0.10 to $500

EDit: that is showing ~4500 games. Pic is kinda small...

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I think it is but only in the big money games.

hmm .. makes it interesting doesnt it - i agree we want donks on our table - and i seek them out myself, yet its consensus that its only likely possible in the higher stakes games ..

Here's a related thread on CC (from 2007) How many tables do you play at once?

There's a guy who played 50,000 hands in one day!! (while making a profit). Same guy also held the record number of hands played in one month at 604,000. (not sure if this record still stands, as he was contemplating shooting for 1million hands in 1mth. & this was back in late 2009).
I record on Guiness Records, Elky has the record of most tables played at 62 (< not sure if this is still the record today either).

Lots of tables at higher stakes to eliminate donks would help to turn a profit, but only if you know what you're doing obviously. You could get in big trouble mulitabling at high stakes

Multi-tabling to generate volume is key but why do you want to "eliminate donks." ? Bad players are the source of your profit.

Id say no.
Not if you mean that you will never have days when you loose money. Cause the swings will come.

I concur.

Everyone who is dissing donks, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE MONEY AT ONLINE POKER!

Why the hell would you want to sit at a table full of regs who know what theyre doing, so you can lose your money? or just play pass with your chips for a while?

/thread

i say yes

i making a decent profit every month, not enough to live from but some nice pocket money.

play mainly 5-10-25 nlhe ring games and selectif mtt/sng on 5 different sites regulair and some mtt on 4 other sites irregulair.

the irregulair games are mostly easy money games
got 1 thats a $1 buyin freeze mtt with $500 added and 10 $50 bounties added with about 30-40 players playing, pitty its only once each month
9 players get in the money
cashed $327 there last month :P

Nuff said...... Yes it is possible to make a steady income online playing the pokerz.

I have a question for those that do not think donks hurt the game. If you have two donks at your table do you have a better chance of winning than if you have say 6 donks at your table. How many times have we discussed that AA is great against one or two players but the suckouts are way more likely when 5 people stay in the hand.

It's way off topic here but something worth discussing in another thread I think.,

[quote=kmixer;1624311]I have a question for those that do not think donks hurt the game. If you have two donks at your table do you have a better chance of winning than if you have say 6 donks at your table. How many times have we discussed that AA is great against one or two players but the suckouts are way more likely when 5 people stay in the hand./quote]

Well, I only play full-ring and given a choice, I'd prefer to have 8 other donks at my table (if you include me I guess that makes 9 ). Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would prefer fewer bad players and more good players at your table. Give me all the bad players you got. I read a really old poker book somewhere, even pre online poker I think, that discussed this topic. The author called it something like "pooling of the fishes" or something like that. Really can't remember, its probably been 15 years ago or more that I read it. Anyway his point was the more bad players the better for you as long as you realize how the game dynamic is changed. Your varience will be way higher. Your income should also be way higher in the long term. Big pocket pairs, even A-A and K-K, are way over valued against a table full of donks if you can't chase anyone out. Either bet huge pre-flop to at least try to thin the field, or, if you get a lot of callers, don't invest much in the hand unimproved.

Yeah in a 9 person sng i would rather to play 2 donks and 6 passive novice players to the game.
Edit:by donks here i'm talking about the players that are pushing all in every hand or calling every hand.

ok so you hit on interesting points that ive been pondering - so we know AA & KK are no good against donks, they will play not only any 2 cards but any connectors or suits

So ok a big preflop raise with AA doesnt chase them away (see below) , we are gonna wait for big hands - like flushes, straights, boats ? Well how often do these come ? OK so we establish we have to be more aggressive and make more plays against these types because otherwise we will nit our way, waiting for those premium hands - alright how many times have u made a play and its called down anyway and u hemorrhage chips ... for me thats a hell of a lot lately.

Lets be honest - how many hands against a player online do u need to see to get even a remotely close read on his hand or range ? A crap load i would say because come on - not even they know what they're doing !

Again i'll reiterate its not the donks i dont like - i love them - the truly mindless players i will chase if they even leave the table ... lol

I guess my point is that I'm feeling like the number of bad beats and suckouts against donk plays are just too overwhelming to make a consistent return from the online game unless as some have said, i guess the volume of hands is astranomical and the bankroll can withstand the drawdown from really poor runs -which ive just experienced.

As a side note i just lost another stack 2 hrs ago holding AA after i MASSIVELY raised preflop to get 1 caller eventually show me KT suited and hit his set on the turn (and full boat on river) .. i mean how many of those can a player take ?

Thx for listening ... been a real brutal week

rs03rs03 120-tables $1.10 DoN's, he is a beast, must be Supernova at least too, there was a thread on the other forum a while back about him

What is the difference between a professional poker player and a pizza?
The pizza can feed a family.

There are a lot of Pros who multi-table ring games all day every day and just break even to maintain their bankroll.

But because of the volume, the rake back cheque provides an income.
That is the most common way. No heroics or major wins. Just consistent hard graft which then negates the unknown variables you mention.

thats an honest response im after chemist

so yes it can be done but as you say, unless u have the volume + rake back, its more likely a no.

It's not way off topic at all. OP specifically mentions all the donks. Personally, I'm a live player. That's where I learned the game (thank god), and that's where I've spent the most hours.
When I play live, I win with AA about 80 to 90 percent of the time. Online I win about 40 to 60 percent. Is it because I play AA differently online? No. The more players in a hand against AA, the more likely it is to be cracked, and so it goes with KK, QQ etc. In the last year, playing hundreds of hours of live, I've seen aces cracked by 22, 33, 44 less than a dozen times, if that. Online, it's a daily occurrence. Why?
When I play live 2-3 NL, and everyone at the table generally has about 200 or 300 hundred, people respect a 5x BB raise preflop; and if they don't, they learn to. If there's a big raise on the flop or turn, people generally fold their junk. They do not push an all in button, hoping to catch on the river.
People say donks are good. Sure, but not multiple donks ready to push all in, all the time. Horrible donks like I encounter online, do not survive in a live environment, they either get better, or get tired of losing $100 buy ins.
One or two donks on a table, get taken out. A table full of donks, will take you out. It's not even poker anymore, it becomes a slot machine.

It's possible, but very difficult. You really have to be quite good and disciplined. Just peruse OPR a bit, winning players don't start showing up until the top 95% or something. That's 19 losers for every winner...so odds are improvements must be made to your game before you get into that skill level.

That being said, volume is the only real remedy for variance. So...get good and play lotz, that will maximize your chances of turning a consistent profit on this game.

edit: Usually, you're seeing your big hands cracked online more frequently than live because you see 2-5x more hands online than you do live. That and players in a live game really seem to care about their image. I've noticed that they're less likely to make big moves with crazy stuff than online. But just run some equity calculation, those online spews are worth a lot of +EV and long-term will probably be more profitable than the fish you play live.

Mainly it's about adjustment between live/online. Live players fold too much/"respect raises"? Then run more bluffs and tighten up your value-betting range. Online players call any-size bet with 2 blanks? Then stop bluffing and value bet wider and more thinly. That TP-no kicker is suddenly quite strong if your opponent will readily call you down with A-high or bottom pair.

The two are both beatable for a nice profit, but you can't play the same way to get the job done.

Possiible? Yes.

Possible if you think too many "donks" make it impossible? No.

Of course it's possible. But too many people think they can do it, when the reality is there are many many times more losing players than winning players, and the majority of players are nowhere near as good as they think they are. So unless and until players are willing to put in the time and effort to actually study, plug their own leaks, and improve their game, those players will never be profitable. Players who just sit down online for the first time and think they're as good or better than everyone else at the table are in for a rude awakening. And I don't care how long you've been playing live -- it's an entirely different game.


Sorry, but I'm calling BS. Firstly, how have you accurately tracked AA in your live games -- do you make a note every time, have photographic memory, or what? Likewise, when you play online, how do you track those hands? I get the feeling you aren't using HEM/PT3, or you would know better (assuming you've played a decent volume online).

This is a popular and common misconception from beginning online players, whether totally new to poker or coming from live games, but it's consistently been proven to be false. And yet it never dies. Also, this sort of statement is common from those aforementioned players thinking they're better than they really are. Which are also usually those who think "too many fish" are bad for the game.

Play enough hands online to get a meaningful sample size (say, 20k hands at least), then run your HEM/PT3 reports on your AA hands. I will guarantee you, without any doubt whatsoever, that your AA holds up 80+% of the time. I've done this repeatedly on my own HEM database to dispute those making such claims, as I've seen many other players with decent sample sizes do. Last time I checked, out of several hundred AA hands, mine held at like 82% IIRC.

We're not talking out of 10 times though. We're talking about hundreds and thousands of times. Which is the "long term" that players need to be focusing on, not the results-oriented view from the few hundred total hands that many obsess over. Statistics don't lie, even though many like to think the sites, the RNGs, the donks, and the poker gods are all conspiring against them. Anything to point the finger away from themselves.

BTW, I run into far more fish live than I do online at most sites. The major sites like Stars and Tilt have become more and more reg infested. I would *love* to sit at a FR table with 8 fish. It would make for a boring game, mind you, as I'd be folding, limping, and calling down a ton more than I normally would, but that would be offset by the profits.

It is possible ! Your bankroll has to be large enough and you have to put in the hands, the hours, the work...
If you pick the right game and donīt tilt, you have a very good chance to make good poker money for a living !

i would have to say having a large starting BR is the key. playing higher stakes to avoid the donks who chase to the river is also important. i have one friend who claims to make 6figures a year playing online holdem.

Exactly my point. Not aimed at anyone in particular, but if you can't beat the "donks" what makes you think you'll be able to beat a table full of mostly decent regs and 1 or 2 donks who you AND ALL THE OTHER REGS will be gunning for? Doesn't make sense.

Thank you. If I here one more person complain about bad players I think my head is going to explode. In every other field of competition we recognize that the better our opponent the harder it is to win. When people play poker for some reason the thinking seems to be: " I can't beat a table of bad players. I know, I'll move up stakes and take on solid regs. That will be easy money."

If you can't beat the donks, its not their fault its yours.