Razz Poker: The who, what, why, when, where, and how of it all

This has now been tailored to be the general Razz Poker discussion thread for all things Razz. Simple or general conversation, questions, and discussions should take place here to minimize fragmenting the limited Razz discussions that we have going on here.

Of course that doesn't stop anyone from starting a new thread in the Poker Hand Analysis (http://www.cardschat.com/f33/) to take place for either Tournament Hands (http://www.cardschat.com/f51/) or Ring Game Hands (http://www.cardschat.com/f50/), then those threads should be created there as well.

Again, the purpose of this clean up was to consolidate various discussions into a single general purpose thread, so I would also suggest that as any threads are created in the various other forums noted above, it might be a good idea to post those links here so the small Razz contingent that we have can better find and reply to those topics.

Talk about your no skill at all what so ever game. This game is like hide and seek---Play and pray. Everyone betting to max on every card hoping for the draw. It's nothing more than a slots casino game.

i like razz. sounds to me like you had a few people i would love at my table. got to take advantage of their bad play. i think it is one of the easier games to play. but there are many that play it and no nothing about how to play. at tilt they have a freeroll with 2400 peeps in it. only about 200 know how to play well. i may be exaggerating a little though. but there is skill involved for some of us that play it regularly.

I'd probably agree that there's a biggere element of luck in Razz than some other games, because it's the only game where you can't be dealt a made hand so every hand you play will involve some amount of drawing.

There's definitely skill to it though, and I think it's one of the games where being skilled can make the biggest difference to your win rate.

It's a frustrating game, but that doesn't mean it doesn't require skill.

very well written oz. your explanation to the game is true. i am one of those who gets confused with the winning low hand though. sometimes i think i have the winning hand yet the winner is someone with a higher (low) card but a closer sequence. i would appriciate if this could be explained please.

Absolutely not true. Sure there is a luck element. But most people think it is more luck than it is because they think it is a simpler game than it is. And a lot of people who don't get the game play super aggressively. But if you look closely you will see that the same people consistently make it to the final tables in the razz free rolls and low limit tournaments. In my experience more so than any of the other types . When I make it to a final table in hold em or Omaha I only rarely see a table full of other people I know. In Razz I almost always know most of the table. Luck isn't that consistent.

I think I know what you're getting at. Your hand consists of your five lowest cards, but they're assessed from the highest of those five cards down.

For example, 76543xx beats 8432Axx - the first hand is a seven low, and the second is an eight low.

Aces play low of course, but when comparing hands start with your highest card and work down.

As an example let's say you have:
8752A

opponent has:
87432 (winner)

Sorry if you went all-in on that, but the 3rd card is the decider on that hand.

I completely agree with you 100%. My opinion of Razz is that most people just don't know how to play properly - I believe that there is pretty much a way to play razz perfectly. If everyone knew how to play Razz perfectly, the game might be a lot more about luck (although there are ways to adjust your game play to take advantage of opponents skill level) but people just don't play it properly, and it is of course a game where patience and calmness is essential because it is very easy to get frustrated.

One of my favorite parts of razz is watching the other players make mistakes, because based on the face up cards, you can tell what someone should do - and when they don't do it, its almost certain that they paired the ace or the two or whatever, because since razz is a limit game, its not a particularly good idea to try and trap your opponent, especially given that the hand can change a lot with each card dealt.

When I first signed up for Full Tilt, the very first time I played the razz freeroll i came in tenth, second time i believe i made it to the top 100 and played too agressively on the bubble and lost to a suck out, third time I played in it i took first. So I definitely agree that it is possible to consistently do well in razz. Skill is very important in Razz because there is so much information available to you given that there are so many face up cards.

What are you playing play money Razz? That doesn't happen that often, even in $3.40 SNGs.

As mentioned by others, there is plenty of skill in Razz. Sorry, you haven't been able to pick that up yet. But I'm sure you haven't played the game enough.

There is very much an edge that can be pushed in the game to be profitable at it. Both in SNGs and Ring.

I love threads like this where somebody who doesn't understand a game puts it down as a no skill game.

I enjoy playing razz but everytime i do i seem to get the cards i need to play Stud. it is a frustrating game but i really enjoy it

There is skilled involved.

I mean, say you have A26K showing and your 3 under cards are all jacks, you could probably push someone off a hand like 45678, unless he's an idiot.

You probably would not be able to push someone off the 45678 in that situation. If you are first dealt 2 jacks and an Ace, you really only should bet if everyone has folded to you, and the remaining people left to act have a high card up, like a king. In that situation, theres a good chance that they are both going to fold and you will not even reach the river. Otherwise you should not be playing JJA, not even to see another card.

Definately a skill game where stealing (in tournament play) and knowing when to fold are crucial.

Also looking at the cards that are gone are important as a hand that has some of its cards gone can increase the winning percentages of that hand substantially.

I think that it is possible to make more money off most non-holdem games as most of the players have not understood the theory behind the games.

Razz is fun to play and hard to understand the ins and outs of it. This is one game when you play, you really cant multi-task. It is important to watch what up cards are dealt and folded by other players. Are these cards you need to complete your low hand or are they folding high cards which means you wont get dealt these and your chances of hitting your low cards are better. Fun game, if you think this is tough try 2-7 triple draw

thank you ozexorcist and qwerrk for you help explaining a low winning hand. i now have a much better understanding of the 5 low cards. your help was appriciated

If u like razz then u ought to try Badugi , carbon has a freeroll daily and pokerstar is goin to be adding it to their games.

LOL. I know exactly what you mean. I was playing razz recently, and I got rolled up Aces as my starting hand. I've yet to get three aces in stud (haven't been playing that long) but I get one in razz. Couldn't help but laugh at that.

Razz ?------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------

I love to play Razz.
I play with Logica in the game so I will if I have good 3 cards.
But there are several players who play freeroll principalemnte in Logica with no betting in any way and risking moves into useless.

yvw

If you ever play in the 9PM EST Razz FR at FullTilt, I'm often there, I'll keep an eye out for ya

Definitely a fun tourney and generally peppered with players w/out a clue that can lead to some easy pickin's

Very true what the other poster said about not multi-tasking and keeping close track of cards.

On a separate note, what's up with the troll-spam puke-fest from poster nottocer? Need to run up that post count, do ya? Pretty lame posts; I doubt site-admin appreciates that.

ttfn

I've only played it a few times, both live and online, but I can understand what I heard about the game early on. Some pro was discussing Razz and said there was always a table near the back of a poker room he went to that was full of old guys that always looked as if they were the most miserable bunch in the world.

I don't think anyone, even regular razz players, will argue that the game can be intensely frustrating.

Part of the skill in playing razz successfully is actually emotional control. If you fly into fits of mouse-hurling, dealer-cursing rage when your aces get cracked in hold 'em, razz is definitely not the game for you. In fact, that makes you the kind of player that good razz players profit from.

Personally, I've learned to see the funny side of (A2)3KK hands. Because gawd knows I'm probably going to laugh when the same thing happens to my opponents and I get to take the pot away with something marginal. In the long run my opponents will brick out their great starting hands just as often as I will.

Cliff Notes version: Razz. It's not for tilt-monkeys.

I am new to razz, but seem to have a niche for it, I have only played it a hand full of times and have finished in the top 10% every time, unfortunately, they have all been freerolls with only satelite seats at stake.

I am also new to razz and have a simple question someone should be able to answer.

My Hand: A 7 7 8 9 4 6

Do one of the 7's cancell out? making my playing hand A 4 6 7 8 ???

Im fairly sure they do just making sure?

You are an idiot, in the mold of people who think soccer is for kids who couldn't make the football team.

You got that one right. They could not pay me to play that game. When I am in a h.o.r.s.e tourney, I make sure I have something to do for those 10 min. They should of named that game Pure Tilt.

The 7's don't "cancel out", you simply use your best 5 cards and that 2nd 7 isn't one of them. And yes, that is your hand.

Razz is a great change of pace game. If you're on a bad roll in hold'em our another favorite game, razz can be a place to recalibrate your game....maybe

If there is I sure don't wanna read it!!

People will tell you razz is mostly luck with little or no skill. These are people who know nothing about poker. People like Barry Greenstein, Doyle Brunson, Ted Forrest, etc. will tell you that there is a lot of skill to razz because otherwise how could so many players be bad at it? I would tend to believe them.

This...

I suck at Razz but like to play every now and then and i always had the impression that even if its the only game where u cant be dealt a made hand,its the form of poker where good players have the biggest edge(atleast at the lower stakes) cause so many people have no idea how to play.
In holdem for example every one atleast know the basics but in Razz there is a ridicules amount of players that dont even know the ground rules.

I <3 razz.

Except when I hate it... which is often.

I like to play Razz because I have very luck the get low cards (heheeh).
When I am playing HORSE I earn much chips in Razz.

As posted before the 7s rather brick than cancel themselves out.
Your hand will be 8764A as you said but there is another point:

A,7,7 as a starting hand is not very good.

A,7,7 is worse than A,7,K though it looks better.

Play with starting hands like A,x,8 as worst starting as a beginner.

I usally start with 7 low in early position.

Starting hands late position: A,2,3-8/2,3,4-8/3,4,5-8/4,5,6-8/5,6,7-8/6,7,8.

(this is rather tight but works well for me)