Random Card Generators?

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PokerHack

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Hello players,
I've been playing since the beginning of the year, and am wondering how the random card generators work, at both full tilt and pokerstars. Seems to me, at full tilt, a player seems to be selected beforehand, to have the best hand.......you just have to decide if thats gonna be you. The "random" cards generated, look like they are falling into a pattern which if watched closely enough for, you can almost tell whats going to come up. Its crazy. So just wondering if any of you experienced players have noticed a pattern like this, and is there a link to these sites explaining their method of generating hands? Thanks in advance,

Frank "Pokerhack" D.
 
arkadiy

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There is no true random. It is told what to "randomly" pick out through code, and since some people picked and wrote the code it already has pre-set patterns but they do not deal with who gets them, it's just where you sit.

At least that's my look on things.
 
Egon Towst

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Don`t tell me, it`s rigged.

Sigh. :(
 
arkadiy

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Don`t tell me, it`s rigged.

Sigh. :(

Not rigged. But is there any true way to have a random generator? It all goes through code and code can be decrypted and used in the opposite way of making the "random" cards, it can also find them.

Still, only means it's rigged if someone stole the random card generator code. And for all I know, my whole theory is wrong :p
 
vanquish

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Not rigged. But is there any true way to have a random generator? It all goes through code and code can be decrypted and used in the opposite way of making the "random" cards, it can also find them.

Still, only means it's rigged if someone stole the random card generator code. And for all I know, my whole theory is wrong :p

There exist two types of RNGs: "True" random number generators (based on physical events said to be random) and pseudorandom number generators that are theoretically predictable by mathematics. My guess is that poker sites use the latter.
 
arkadiy

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There exist two types of RNGs: "True" random number generators (based on physical events said to be random) and pseudorandom number generators that are theoretically predictable by mathematics. My guess is that poker sites use the latter.

And what are these physical events?
 
vanquish

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And what are these physical events?

I've heard that it uses things like your computer's internal clock (to the nearest .x of a second) and such, but I'm not sure. I think it's a lot harder to implement than one would think.
 
Effexor

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And what are these physical events?

There are several, one is the decay of a radioactive source. You hook up a geiger counter close to a radioactive source and then use the time intervals between clicks to seed your RNG.

Another one is where they will hook up a sound card to an antenna tuned to an unused band. Then they use the white noise to seed the RNG.

There are other ones too but this gives you an idea.
 
dj11

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I posted some time ago a review of the description of the RNG that FUll TIllt uses, and a few others also.

I'm lazy and won't find my post, but you can read the original treatise which you can find via the Full Tilt forums. It describes a method they use, and though they avoid detail, it is still way over my head. They get into quantum level 'clocks'. The thing that freaked me the most was the description about how a complete deck is not used for each hand, rather they combine all the decks in play at any moment and choose the next card from that mega deck.

The treatise is not written by FT but a link to it is provided.
 
Thewebmaster

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Here is the info on pokerstars rng

Hi all,
There are good rng's and not so good ones, the question you really want answering is if a certain poker room is using a genuine rng or one that can be altered (yes they can). Here is pokerstars rng info which can be found here:

Online Poker Random Number Generator - RNG - Poker Software

To save time i've copied it here for you:

PokerStars submitted extensive information about the PokerStars random number generator (RNG) to two independent organizations. We asked these two trusted resources to perform an in-depth analysis of the randomness of the output of the RNG, and its implementation in the shuffling of the cards on PokerStars.
BMMlogo2.gif
spacer.gif
BMM International is an independent testing agency and consulting practice involved with the design, evaluation, implementation, testing and management of computer and Internet systems. The company tests and certifies all forms of conventional and electronic commerce computer systems and networks, specializing in gaming, wagering and sports betting systems.
PokerStars provided BMM with the source code for its RNG and shuffle, and software that PokerStars uses to protect the security of random numbers. BMM then subjected the source code and the output of the RNG to rigorous testing, including the Marsaglia Die Hard tests.
BMM found that:
  • the PokerStars RNG and shuffle generate results that are truly random and unpredictable
  • the software used by PokerStars complies with all industry-standard requirements (including entropy sources, security, unpredictability, uniformity and fairness)
  • the software passed the Marsaglia Die Hard tests
BMM concluded that the PokerStars RNG and shuffle comply with the requirements of the standard "I0101 - Internet Gaming Random Number Generator Requirements."
BMM International

CIgitallogo2.gif

spacer.gif
Cigital, Inc. is a leading provider of solutions to speed the development and delivery of high-quality software. The company is a major provider of software quality management (SQM) solutions to major corporations worldwide, including Visa International, AOL Time Warner, Motorola, General Electric, Ericsson and many others.
Cigital has announced that it has confirmed the reliability and security of the random number generator (RNG) that PokerStars uses to shuffle cards on its PokerStars.com online poker site.
Cigital analyzed the source code, entropy sources and documentation for PokerStars' RNG implementation. In addition, a sample RNG output stream provided by PokerStars was subjected to - and passed - FIPS 140-1 testing. Using standard methods for exploiting RNGs and having full access to the source code, Cigital was unable to break the PokerStars RNG. Cigital found that the PokerStars implementation adheres to the current state-of-the-practice in generating random seeding values.
"Software that can generate reliable random numbers is an absolute requirement in the gaming industry," said Gary McGraw, Chief Technology Officer at Cigital. "Our analysis included extensive examination of the underlying algorithm for random number generation. We can state with confidence that use of the PokerStars RNG results in statistically random sequences used to generate the poker hands dealt on PokerStars.com. This, in turn, should provide a safe and fair gaming environment for the site's players."
"Cigital's reputation for excellence is well known in the gaming industry," said Dan Goldman, Vice President of Marketing at PokerStars. "Their previous discovery of critical RNG implementation weakness at a major online poker site made our decision to work with Cigital an easy one. Their considerable technical expertise and thorough approach to software reliability and security have established them as a trusted third-party evaluator."
Cigital -- The Software Quality Company
Glossary
Entropy: a measure of a system's disorder or randomness.
FIPS 140-1: a U.S. government standard for implementations of cryptographic modules, that is, hardware or software that encrypts and decrypts data or performs other cryptographic operations. FIPS 140-1 specifies security requirements that are to be satisfied by a cryptographic module used within a security system protecting information within computer systems.
Marsaglia Die Hard Tests: a stringent battery of tests for random number generators, developed by George Marsaglia, Professor Emeritus, Florida State University (who also developed a variety of widely-used RNGs).
Random Number Generator (RNG): a system, device or module that creates a sequence of apparently unrelated numbers.



 
Thewebmaster

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Fullt tilt and other site rng's

Hi all,
For fulltilt info and a few others this information is copied from :

Ask a Poker Pro - Are online Poker Sites Rigged

Gaming Commissions and Random Number Generator Testing

Groups such as the Kahnawake Gaming Commission (based in canada) are popular among a number of the poker sites for regulating and overseeing the poker sites. These commissions don't check the validity of the deal however, and instead just act as regulators to ensure that a site is operating under the bounds of their agreements. In all honestly, this more or less means the commission is paid to act as an authority, because there's not a lot of power they have over the poker sites!
The real deal (pun intended) is the random number generator evaluation, which occurs by having a 3rd party come in to look at the poker sites' source code. The "source code" is the actual software that the site uses to create the random numbers, which can have many different methods. Most current generation random number generators use chaotic events such as atmospheric conditions, keyboard input across a wide scale or other wacky things that scientists and mathematicians come up with. Two sites that have submitted their code to random number generators are (again) Party Poker (iTech Labs) and PokerStars (Cigital).
Having a third party test the code is quite imperative to ensuring that a site is operating within ethical boundaries. Without third party testing, a site could hot swap the deck at-will if they so wanted to. Of course, it's my personal belief that none of the major sites would do this because of the trouble they'd get into if they did (risking the whole business to make a few more bucks), but my speculations are no more fact-based than the speculations from those claiming the sites are biased. In short, if you're worried at all, play at a poker site with a verified random number generator!.
Here are a list of the most popular poker sites and the commissions or groups they use to certify their sites:
PokerRoom eCogra Oversees operator conduct, player promotions, random games and honest advertising Full Tilt Poker Kahnawake Regulation, control and integrity of games. Absolute Poker Six Nations No information available at this time. Bodog Gaming Associates Random number generator authentication and others. Titan Poker None No information available.
 
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Hello players,
I've been playing since the beginning of the year, and am wondering how the random card generators work, at both full tilt and Pokerstars. Seems to me, at full tilt, a player seems to be selected beforehand, to have the best hand.......you just have to decide if thats gonna be you. The "random" cards generated, look like they are falling into a pattern which if watched closely enough for, you can almost tell whats going to come up. Its crazy. So just wondering if any of you experienced players have noticed a pattern like this, and is there a link to these sites explaining their method of generating hands? Thanks in advance,

Frank "Pokerhack" D.

I've found the same to be true at Full-Tilt. I'm not going to go "conspiracy theory" and have everyone jump all over me, but there are most certainly noticeable patterns at Full-Tilt which leads me to believe their RNG is not a very good one. I've never played at any site that had a truly random generator, because I just don't believe they exist. Full-Tilt's however, is one of the worst I've ever seen.
 
Semicolonkid

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I've found the same to be true at Full-Tilt. I'm not going to go "conspiracy theory" and have everyone jump all over me, but there are most certainly noticeable patterns at Full-Tilt which leads me to believe their RNG is not a very good one. I've never played at any site that had a truly random generator, because I just don't believe they exist. Full-Tilt's however, is one of the worst I've ever seen.

I hate to agree, but I guess I gotta agree...I've said in the past that I think the card generators are random enough so "good poker players win and bad ones lose" in the long run like real life(and I still think this holds plenty true), but there are also patterns that just happen too often. Not saying it's rigged, just saying it's not "random" like everyone else has specified above.
 
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unlucky79

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I agree there is nothing random when you get same suited cards back to back hands. Thats fishy to me anyone else agree??
 
royalburrito24

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i remember a thread on here about 3 weeks ago about the full tilt card randomizer. the thread indicated that they cards are constantly shuffling, throughout an enitre hand
 
pokertramp

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the way I see it as random is that unlike a live game where you use one deck per table, it is multiple decks for all the tables. One hand could be #500 then the next hand you play is hand #3,200 and it's not the same deck being dealt from. This is the way I see it and why I have come to the conclusion that it's not rigged. I have heard there are programs that are able to depict a RCG and able to give you a rough idea of what the cards on the next hands flop is going to be. I don't think it works for one and I would rather win by my skill than cheating. One other thing I noticed on FTP is when playing RAZZ before all the cards are dealt out and I have the high card, it is asking me to bring in the bet.......I don't know if it reads ahead or how and hopefully this read ahead information can't be hacked. Again I am not worried.
 
Semicolonkid

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i remember a thread on here about 3 weeks ago about the full tilt card randomizer. the thread indicated that they cards are constantly shuffling, throughout an enitre hand

I remember that one too. But I wasn't talking about the flop, turn, and river...for the most part I was talking about the 2 cards you're dealt. Although, there may be patterns on the board too because "shuffling" is still pseudo-randomness, as said.:deal:
 
DaFrench1

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It's not rigged, and anyone who thinks it might be is a moron with a lack of understanding of statistics and basic logic.
 
Wonka22

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I'm continuously baffled as to why ANYONE who THINKS that poker sites are rigged would even play a freeroll at one of these sites. Honestly!!
 
Crummy

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Below is something I read a while back and saved it, it was a crack done by a couple of programmers.

vanquish - you will like this, you almost hit the nail on the head with the system clock!!

In a real deck of cards, there are 52! (approximately 2^226) possible unique shuffles. When a computer shuffles a virtual deck of cards, it selects one of these possible combinations. There are many algorithms that can be used to shuffle a deck of cards, some of which are better than others (and some of which are just plain wrong).
We found that the algorithm used by ASF Software, Inc., the company that produces the software used by most of the online poker games, suffered from many flaws. ASF has changed their algorithm since we contacted them regarding our discovery. We have not looked at their new approach. Getting everything exactly right from a security perspective is not easy (as the rest of this article will show).
Figure 1: The Flawed ASF Shuffling Algorithm

procedure TDeck.Shuffle;var ctr: Byte; tmp: Byte; random_number: Byte;begin { Fill the deck with unique cards } for ctr := 1 to 52 do Card[ctr] := ctr; { Generate a new seed based on the system clock } randomize; { Randomly rearrange each card } for ctr := 1 to 52 do begin random_number := random(51)+1; tmp := card[random_number]; card[random_number] := card[ctr]; card[ctr] := tmp; end; CurrentCard := 1; JustShuffled := True;end;The shuffling algorithm shown in Figure 1 was posted by ASF Software in order to convince people that their computer-generated shuffles were entirely fair. Ironically, it had the exact opposite effect on us.
The algorithm starts by initializing an array with values in order from 1 to 52, representing the 52 possible cards. Then, the program initializes a pseudo-random number generator using the system clock with a call to Randomize(). The actual shuffle is performed by swapping every position in the array, in turn, with a randomly chosen position. The position to swap with is chosen by calls to the pseudo-random number generator.
Problem One: An Off-By-One Error

Astute programmers will have noticed that the algorithm in question contains an off-by-one error. The algorithm is supposed to traverse the initial deck while swapping each card with any other card. Unlike most Pascal functions, the function Random(n) actually returns a number between 0 and n-1 instead of a number between 1 and n. The algorithm uses the following snippet of code to choose which card to swap with the current card: . The formula sets random_number to a value between 1 and 51. In short, the algorithm in question never chooses to swap the current card with the last card. When ctr finally reaches the last card, 52, that card is swapped with any other card except itself. That means this shuffling algorithm never allows the 52nd card to end up in the 52nd place. This is an obvious, but easily correctable, violation of fairness.
Problem Two: Bad Distribution Of Shuffles

A closer examination of the shuffling algorithm reveals that, regardless of the off-by-one problem, it doesn't return an even distribution of decks. The basic algorithm at the heart of the shuffle is shown in Figure 2.
Shuffling

A closer examination of the algorithm reveals that, regardless of the off-by-one error, it doesn't return an even distribution of shuffles. That is, some shuffles are more likely to be produced than others are. This uneven distribution can be leveraged into an advantage if a tipped-off player is willing to sit at the table long enough.
To illustrate this problem using a small example, we'll shuffle a deck consisting of only three cards (i.e, n=3) using the algorithm described above.
Generating Random Numbers on a Deterministic Machine

The first set of software flaws we discussed merely changes the probabilities that certain cards will come up. The associated skews can be used by a clever gambler to gain an edge, but the flaws really don't constitute a complete break in the system. By contrast, the third flaw, which we explain in this section, is a doozy that allows online poker to be completely compromised. A short tutorial on pseudo-random number generators sets the stage for the rest of our story.
How Pseudo-Random Number Generators Work

Suppose we want to generate a random number between 1 and 52, where every number has an equal probability of appearing. Ideally, we would generate a value on the range from 0 to 1 where every value will occur with equal probability, regardless of the previous value, then multiply that value by 52. Note that there are an infinite number of values between 0 and 1. Also note that computers do not offer infinite precision!
In order to program a computer to do something like the algorithm presented above, a pseudo-random number generator typically produces an integer on the range from 0 to N and returns that number divided by N. The resulting number is always between 0 and 1. Subsequent calls to the generator take the integer result from the first run and pass it through a function to produce a new integer between 0 and N, then return the new integer divided by N. This means the number of unique values returned by any pseudo-random number generator is limited by number of integers between 0 and N. In most common random number generators, N is 2^32 (approximately 4 billion) which is the largest value that will fit into a 32-bit number. Put another way, there are at most 4 billion possible values produced by this sort of number generator. To tip our hand a bit, this 4 billion number is not all that large.

On To Poker, Or How To Use A Random Number Generator Badly

The shuffling algorithm used in the ASF software always starts with an ordered deck of cards, and then generates a sequence of random numbers used to re-order the deck. Recall that in a real deck of cards, there are 52! (approximately 2^226) possible unique shuffles. Also recall that the seed for a 32-bit random number generator must be a 32-bit number, meaning that there are just over 4 billion possible seeds. Since the deck is reinitialized and the generator re-seeded before each shuffle, only 4 billion possible shuffles can result from this algorithm. Four billion possible shuffles is alarmingly less than 52!.
To make matters worse, the algorithm of Figure 1 chooses the seed for the random number generator using the Pascal function Randomize(). This particular Randomize() function chooses a seed based on the number of milliseconds since midnight. There are a mere 86,400,000 milliseconds in a day. Since this number was being used as the seed for the random number generator, the number of possible decks now reduces to 86,400,000. Eight-six million is alarmingly less than four billion. But that's not all. It gets worse.
Breaking the System

The system clock seed gave us an idea that reduced the number of possible shuffles even further. By synchronizing our program with the system clock on the server generating the pseudo-random number, we are able to reduce the number of possible combinations down to a number on the order of 200,000 possibilities. After that move, the system is ours, since searching through this tiny set of shuffles is trivial and can be done on a PC in real time.
The RST exploit itself requires five cards from the deck to be known. Based on the five known cards, our program searches through the few hundred thousand possible shuffles and deduces which one is a perfect match. In the case of Texas Hold'em poker, this means our program takes as input the two cards that the cheating player is dealt, plus the first three community cards that are dealt face up (the flop). These five cards are known after the first of four rounds of betting and are enough for us to determine (in real time, during play) the exact shuffle. Figure 5 shows the GUI we slapped on our exploit. The "Site Parameters" box in the upper left is used to synchronize the clocks. The "Game Parameters" box in the upper right is used to enter the five cards and initiate the search. Figure 5 is a screen shot taken after all cards have been determined by our program. We know who holds what cards, what the rest of the flop looks, and who is going to win in advance.
Figure 5: The GUI for our exploit

poker3.jpg
Once it knows the five cards, our program generates shuffles until it discovers the shuffle that contains the five cards in the proper order. Since the Randomize() function is based on the server's system time, it is not very difficult to guess a starting seed with a reasonable degree of accuracy. (The closer you get, the fewer possible shuffles you have to look through.) Here's the kicker though; after finding a correct seed once, it is possible to synchronize our exploit program with the server to within a few seconds. This post facto synchronization allows our program to determine the seed being used by the random number generator, and to identify the shuffle being used during all future games in less than one second!
Technical detail aside, our exploit garnered spectacular press coverage. The coverage emphasizes the human side of our discovery. See our Web site for our original press release, the CNN video clip, and a New York Times story.
Doing Things Properly, or How to Shuffle Virtual Cards

As we have shown, shuffling virtual cards isn't as easy as it may appear at first blush. The best way to go about creating a shuffling algorithm is to develop a technique that can securely produce a well-shuffled deck of cards by relying on sound mathematics. Furthermore, we believe that publishing a good algorithm and opening it up to real-world scrutiny is a good idea (which meshes nicely with the opinions of the Open Source zealots). The main thing here is not relying on security by obscurity. Publishing a bad algorithm (like AFS did) is a bad idea, but so is not publishing a bad algorithm!
Cryptography relies on solid mathematics, not obscurity, to develop strong algorithms used to protect individual, government, and commercial secrets. We think shuffling is similar. We can stretch the analogy to include a parallel between cryptographic key length (which is directly proportional to the strength of many cryptographic algorithms) and the size of the random seed that is used to produce a shuffled deck of cards.
Developing a card-shuffling algorithm is a fairly straightforward task. The first thing to realize is that an algorithm capable of producing each of the 52! shuffles is not really required. The reasoning underlying this claim is that only an infinitesimally small percent of the 52! shuffles will ever be used during play. It is important, however, that the shuffles the algorithm produces maintain an even distribution of cards. A good distribution ensures that each position in the shuffle has an approximately equal chance of holding any one particular card. The distribution requirement is relatively easy to achieve and verify. The following pseudo-code gives a simple card-shuffling algorithm that, when paired with the right random number generator, produces decks of cards with an even distribution.
START WITH FRESH DECKGET RANDOM SEEDFOR CT = 1, WHILE CT <= 52, DOX = RANDOM NUMBER BETWEEN CT AND 52 INCLUSIVESWAP DECK[CT] WITH DECK[X]Key to the success of our algorithm is the choice of a random number generator (RNG). The RNG has a direct impact on whether the algorithm above will successfully produce decks of even distribution as well as whether these decks will be useful for secure online card play. To begin with, the RNG itself must produce an even distribution of random numbers. Pseudo-random number generators (PRNG), such as those based on the Lehmer algorithm, have been shown to possess this mathematical property. It is therefore sufficient to use a good PRNG to produce "random" numbers for card shuffling.
As we have seen, choice of initial seed for the PRNG is a make or break proposition. Everything boils down to the seed. It's absolutely essential that players using a deck of cards generated using a PRNG can't determine the seed used to produce that particular shuffle.
A brute force attempt to determine the seed used to produce a particular shuffle can be made by systematically going through each of the possible seeds, producing the associated shuffle, and comparing the result against the deck you're searching for. To avoid susceptibility to this kind of attack, the number of possible seeds needs to be large enough that it is computationally infeasible to perform an exhaustive search within certain time constraints. Note that on average only half of the seed space will need to be searched until a match is found. For the purposes of an online card game, the time constraint would be the length of that game, which is usually on the order of minutes.
In our experience, a simple program running on a Pentium 400 computer is able to examine approximately 2 million seeds per minute. At this rate, this single machine could exhaustively search a 32-bit seed space (2^32 possible seeds) in a little over a day. Although that time period is certainly beyond the time constraints we have imposed on ourselves, it is certainly not infeasible to use a network of computers to perform a distributed search within our real time bounds.
 
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jonfelkin

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I agree there is nothing random when you get same suited cards back to back hands. Thats fishy to me anyone else agree??


Thats not fishy really it just means the random generator is working, what would be more fishy is if you played online and never had the same 2 cards in back to back hands ever. Ive hit AA 2 hands in a row in a live game they were the same 2 aces as well but i didnt think anyone was rigging it for me to win.
 
DaFrench1

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lol, how do you like this software developer's brag to potential clients:

"Our proprietary random number generator is calculating your profit before the winning/losing number is sent back to the game. you can set a minimum profit that is always kept for you! this also ensures that you will not wake up with $20000 debts!"

Admittedly they are directly referring to the blackjack part of their package rather than poker, but ...
 
pokertramp

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Thats not fishy really it just means the random generator is working, what would be more fishy is if you played online and never had the same 2 cards in back to back hands ever. Ive hit AA 2 hands in a row in a live game they were the same 2 aces as well but i didnt think anyone was rigging it for me to win.

Agreed, I have had K K dealt to me 3 hands in a row with the Kd all three times and it is 2 different decks used in the game.
 
Pathlord

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I remember hearing about the above metioned discoveries and exploits. There will always be room for human error when attempting something complex. I am comfortable with generators that derive their seeds from phenomena surrounding decaying radioactive sources or thermal noise from shielded diodes.
Information about RNGs and PRNGs is interesting and useful, especially when it helps to reveal some critical flaw in a program. I think we sometimes forget that the reasons for these discussions are very often at their foundations psychological.
At a home game you may curse god or even suspect that you have been cheated when bizarre bad beats or strange patterns occur. These impressions are easily criticized as paranoid or superstitious. When a machine becomes involved it is easier rationalize thes feelings of persecution. One is not as open to ridicule if their is a 'scientific' explanation available.
We usually bet when we feel we will win. When we do win, all is right with the world... it does not seem strange. After all, we thought we would win or we would not have bet. Losses are more easily interpreted as strange occurences and the mind remembers them more vividly. A person can build up a long series of these memories, leaving out all the times they won as they expected to. This gives rise to a feeling that the deck is stacked against them. They cast about for persecutors or try to explain away their misfortune as bad luck. If I think someone in a game is sincerely communicating a belief that the universe is against them in some way it pleases me because it can't help but affect their play in a negative way.
 
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whitebrad25

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exactly...many say they have never seen a royal flush....however, on pokerstars...i have seen 4...with very little play in the last year. all of which have been spades in which i hit the river winning a minimul pot. everytime.
 
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