Question from a micro player

Can I start by saying that this forum has helped my online poker playing alot and I respect the comments etc from the players here,but this has puzzled me for a while and I would like to hear the views of the higher stakes players.
I am a micro Sng and MTT player ($5 and less) and read alot of poker books and watch online tutorial vids etc,but alot of stuff I learn just doesn't seem to apply to micro stakes (or does it?).You know the kinda stuff,for example,in BB you get dealt JJ,have an early raise,then an all-in in middle position,then folded round to me,I think for a while and fold,the original raiser calls the all-in and they show A4 and pocket 3s .
I also like playing the slow 15min blinds tourneys,and spend the first two levels just folding because of the raise,re-raise then all-in with nothing mentality! (Calm down guys,the blinds are 15mins)
I know alot of you will say 'just wait till you get premium hands'.But it is so frustrating when your AA,KK etc gets done by Q6o.
I don't want to come across like a right moan and please don't think these comments apply to all micro players,because they don't (there are some VERY good micro players).But it is tough out there,and so frustrating at times when you are trying to build a BR.
I don't have the BR (or poker skills) to move up a level so I will just have to tough it out,but my question for the higher stakes player is this.Do you ever for a change, enter a micro stakes tourney,and if so,how do you cope with the unpredictability of the players.Do you still crush these tourneys because your knowledge of the game is a bit higher than your average micro player (for example,you know about playing in position) or do they confuse the hell outta you also?
I know it must be possible to move on up because everyone starts at the bottom right? I just can't wait for that day to come.

I am also a micro player so I understand where you are coming from. I am by no means a great and probably not even a good player yet. That being said good players will crush the micro's but I think that due to the unpredictablilty of the play they (good players) will experiace very wild variance. That is very high highs and low lows. From what I have seen in my few months here that is why a lot of people would rather grind the micro's at the cash tables to reduce thier volatility. I have thought about doing that myself but enjoy the S&G and tourneys better so I figure I owe it to myself to do the time in the trenches and do my best to learn the lessons that can be learned at this level. Patience, not falling victim to fansy play syndrome, etc.

Of course I could be completely wrong but, C'est la vie

I have read "Playing Low Limit Holdem" by Lee Jones, and use his guidelines. I have made a color chart of what he says to play and when, and keep it at my computer. JJ is on his list of raise and reraise. So in your example I would have called with that JJ. Of course anything you had observed about the players could color that decision, and I hope you made notes on both players for when you run into them again. In a high entry tournament I would probably not have called because it would have hurt too much to lose the entry fee. At $5 or less you mutter a bit and move on to the next tournament. (which is also the mind set of those two idiots you encountered)

Most of those books you read are for live (real life... not online), higher-stakes tournaments. The same principals apply, especially *late* in the game, once the poor players have knocked themselves out.

Online, people don't get as embarrassed for making dumb moves, so they make more dumb moves. Plus at the low stakes games they can afford to lose a lot of games. They see calling a shove with 4/4 as a coin flip, assuming the other guy has two overcards.

Advice depends on your competition:
In a Hellmuth book I read (after getting knocked out first in a 198 player tournament... my first ever tournament), he said that at a tournament full of weak amateurs one can sometimes make the final table by only playing his top ten hands. When I was drafted into playing my second tournament, I decided to follow this stupid advice because then I could blame Hellmuth if I lost (and I hated Hellmuth at the time).
I got to the final table. With 5 of us left I switched things up and started bluffing and such, eventually getting knocked out in 3rd.
I stopped hating Hellmuth after that.

All lower stakes tournaments are going to have amateurs who see two face cards and prematurely ejaculate their chips into the pot, not realize how easily their hands can be dominated. Plus they have terrible chip management skills and can easily get themselves pot committed.

So you can't play standard with these non-standard (IE, terrible) players. See a lot of flops cheap early on. If you hit two pair you can knock out the bad players when they have top pair/top kicker.

As the blinds go up and the donks knock themselves out you can play the game they teach you in the books.

As for being shoved on when you have J/J, without specific information on a guy I'll usually fold that. Q/Q... I'm probably calling unless I know a guy is tight.

Similarly, if I'm dealt a monster early in a tournament I'm going to overplay it. Why open for 3BB when the noobs at that level will call 5BB just as often? If someone re-raises my A/A or K/K, I'll shove. They'll miss the flop most of the time, so get their money in while you can. And with more chips in the pot they're more likely to make a suicidal bluff attempt.

I go back to micro stakes from time to time just to have a more relaxing game if that makes sense, I think if you half expect to rinsed by rubbish it takes the edge of when it eventually happens

Last night I was in a 2$ 180 player turbo on Stars get dealt AA push all my chips in the middle knowing full well I would get called and I did by A3o, he hit trip 3's on the flop. I even said nh in the chat box

I think it's alot like you hear the Pro's on TV saying they'd rather play against other pros than some of the new players in a tournament who is there on freeroll or a sattelite qualifier. The truth is there's weak players at the higher tables but I do think they protect there money a little more than they do at the micro tables. I find the micro cash tables to be the worst and the SnG's not quite as bad. Keep playing the SnG's... grind it out... and remember good play does pay off in the long run no matter what level youre at.

[quote=nc_royals;828279]I think it's alot like you hear the Pro's on TV saying they'd rather play against other pros than some of the new players in a tournament who is there on freeroll or a sattelite qualifier. /quote]

I think they usually say that after they're eliminated.

Mike Caro talks about people being predictable when they understand the consequences of their actions. Good players make moves for a purpose. So you can read into their actions. Also, they understand proper chip management, so they don't get in life or death.

Bad players aren't predictable because they mistake good cards for great cards, and get themselves in life or death situations. So anybody who tangles with them has to make high-cost decisions based on extremely unreliable information.

Bad players aren't predictable because they mistake good cards for great cards, and get themselves in life or death situations. So anybody who tangles with them has to make high-cost decisions based on extremely unreliable information.

Thanks SavagePenguin,thats exactly the point I was trying to make with my post.

I don't have any trouble being a winnning player at $5 and $10 sng's. I just play very tight at the beginning and adjust my play depending on my chip stack, those of my opponents, position, and how many people are still in the game ( i also will punish loose players and avoid pf raises of tight players unless i have a killer hand and use position). When i have a good hand i raise and ruthlessly fire out more bets on the flop, turn, river till the donk folds or calls all in. These players bluff so much it is hilarious. Most of the fish knock themselves out and you just have to start playing when you're 4 or 5-handed.

Last night i played 5 $5 sng's, came in 1st twice, came in third twice, and bubbled out on 4th once (was short stack, had a good starting hand 4-handed, got beat).

^Made me laugh, just the visuals...

On topic just folow SPs advice. Play your premium hands very agressivley, fold away ALL marginal hands unless your getting extremley good odds and can see a cheap flow. Get as muuch in pre-flop with QQ+ OOP and JJ, AK+. After the first 45mins players have generally tightened up enough adn the donks either got a big enough stack (they like sititng on a big stack as if theyve just won the lottery) or been knocked out you can start employing more of the techniques described in these books.

Builing a BR though SnGs is always going to be difficult due to the high variability and generally poor payout system. Keep at it, play well and you should do well though

In a non-turbo micro MTT, I usually shift from tight-aggressive to supertight-hyperaggressive. That means making insane 20xBB preflop bets with monsters, and shoving on the flop with two-pair or better. Basically, making value bets so large you'd only get called if your opponent had no understanding of the basic logic of poker.

There is an old saying "Hide and Watch" This seems to work for me in micro mtt's. Most of the crazies are ouy by the 4th or 5th level.

Am I the only one that thinks bad players are particularly easy to read? Thier actions usually do make sense, to them. They just don't make sense to a solid thinking player.

Poker is a continuous process. It is not one game or one hand. It is a month, a year. Play every hand regardless of how you are doing, correctly.

Before you can think of using tricks or ploys you must become a fundementally sound player. A good player. Become tough competition. Minimize your losses and maximize your gains. That is the basic concept. You come in with the best of it and in the long run you will go out with the best of it.

Read Sklansky's Poker Theory.

I started on Micro. I lost more than I won. But when I won one MTT it made up for all the times I lost. I am well ahead of the game in money. And after all money is what we want to win. So if you look at it in the long term idiots that come in and beat you with a K6o with a 8,7,9,5,K flop against your rockets dont bother you. Have confidence in that you will eventually come in on the long side of things if you keep playing this way.