Question about flopping the nuts

This isn't about crying about bad beats, it's a serious question about my game. I've been getting crushed when I flop the nuts. In the last week I've flopped two nut flushes, a nut straight and two boats and gotten sucked out on each time. Both boats were the right end of the boat, one was queens full of tens (he had KK and rivered the K) and the other was kings full of jacks (he had AA and rivered the A). This isn't online bitching either as the kings full of jacks hand happened in a casino.

Is there ever a time to fold the nuts? I mean if I flop a nut flush or straight and bet and then get re-raised to $600 to $700 I pretty much know that he's flopped a set. I also know that I am still a huge favorite to win but in the last week I've tracked that I've lost over $2,000 when going all in after the flop. It seems to me (and it's not my nature to do it) that slow playing the nuts can only get you in trouble. But should I slow play the nuts to make sure that I still have the nuts after the river? Does anybody do this?

As far as I know, its only the NUTS when it can not be beaten.

No, I think it's just called (The cards not falling your way) I've played in tourny's where I could do no wrong, and believe me when I say I was laughing the whole time because I couldn't believe what I was seeing and I've played where I push allin with pocket A's and some fool calls with A-K and hits two more K's by the time it's all said and done, and this was live lol I guess that's why it's called a gamble and to me the nuts means flopping the winning hand!!

nuts = best hand at that point in time.

absolute nuts = hand that cannot be beaten no matter what cards come.

Preflop AA is the nuts

Postflop AA may be the nuts but is not the absolute nuts.

Its the nuts if there is no better possible hand at the moment, and the absolute nuts is if it can't be beaten on a later street.

No, you don't start folding the nuts because you've been unlucky with them...only time may be if you're super deepstacked facing an allin with little invested and its a near certainty you are being freerolled - like could happen in omaha.

There may be some really rare situation where you are absolutely positive what your opponent has and taking a card off would increase your avg return, but its not worth looking for...can't be afraid to get it in with the best of it. Are you playing a game you are not properly rolled for - say losing several buyins would be a hardship?

You dont slowplay the nuts to reduce the money you lose when you get outdarwn.. because you also reduce the money you make when you dont get outdrawn.

The only time to slowplay is when you have the nuts and your opponent is unlikely to have anything so a bet will fold out virtually anything he has whereas a check may incuce a bet.

i.e. you hold AA

board = A26r

You not only hold top set, you also hold blockers to TPGK

there are no draws so the only part of your opponents range that could call is overpairs (JJ-KK) and they wont call more than one bet.

If you check, your opponent may decide to bluff or say the turn is a Q and he holds QJ he may feel he has the best hand.

you hold 22

board = A26r

If you bet, even though there are no draws, you aren't blocking TPGK.

You dont slowplay because you have a good hand, you slowplay because the board + the cards you hold mean that its very unlikely for your opponent to hold anything he can call with.

Very nice explanation. So it's situational. Sometimes slow playing "the nuts" can cost you instead of getting more money.

I sometimes slowplay the nuts based on my opponent.

In a tournament near the bubble I had to change tables, one guy was runnin' over people, played about 6 hands in 3-4 orbits, won every one of them, didn't go to show down once, just bet and bet and bet.

Eventually I get KJo, raise from the HJ, he calls from button, flop comes JJK. I know he doesn't have QQ-AA because his style would dictate a raise (and I'm willing to bet my stack and tournament life on it). I check, he bets a tiny amount, I figure him for the case J, I call. Turn comes a blank, I check, he bets a bigger amount. I call. The river comes a Q, I check, he puts me all-in (ya so what I Johnny Chan'd him...)

Aside from these situations, I bet the nuts to protect them, based on what the nuts are and what the board says.

I get frisky and raise with 67o on a steal attempt from the CO, get 2 calls, flop 7-high straight on a board with two diamonds? I bet.

I have top set in a four bet pot on a dripping wet board and the pot is almost as big as my stack behind? I jam.

You must assess your hand's vulnerabilities and ask yourself "How do I get the most money out of this situation?" Obv it's by causing your opponent to make the most expensive mistakes, and if he can't fold down AA on a paired board that hit you big, he's making an expensive mistake and you should play for stakes ASAP.

If he gets lucky he gets lucky. With two aces left to come he's going to win less than 10% of the time if you stack off on the flop.

Chalk it up to variance and drive on.

There is an unfortunate situation that can arise in a similar situation. If you have a maniac/lag image checking that board will send up huge red flags to knowledgeable players.

That's why we bet out when we have a maniac/lag image there sometimes.

Not always, but sometimes.

If you have the same line for every hand every time you probably have a leak.

Here's an example of how I played this hand when I flopped the nuts:

http://www.cardschat.com/f46/flopped-quad-tens-177856/ (http://www.cardschat.com/f46/flopped-quad-tens-177856/)

Using definitions from previous posts, nuts = best hand at the time. If you have the best possible hand at the time, why are you folding? Make them get it all in, and if they suckout, you get them next time. Variance sucks, but if you put your money in good, that's all you can hope for.

I know that. I was just pointing out in that particular situation, your only hope of getting any value is if someone gets frustrated and decides to take a stand.

I changed the word value to stacks because I think you are confusing what value is.

Value is always dictated by your opponents hand and tendencies. Regardless of what you hold, the amount that you win is dictated by how much your opponent is wiling to put into the pot.

As we can remove most of his TPTK hands, we are against a range of underpairs and a few TPGK. Forget about 2pair and sets.. if he has 2 pair or sets he will be trying to get us to put in money so even if we checked all 3 streets he would be doing our betting for us.

So this range of TPGK and underpairs, is mainly made up of underpairs.. we hold 2 of the Aces. SO to get value we have to play against his most likely range.. which are underpairs.

So to value means getting them most an underpair will pay.

If you think an under pair calls 3 streets with an ace on the board.. then you should bet 3 streets.

However I think an underpair calls 1-2 streets.

So against only an underpair you could bet checkk bet or check bet bet but not bet bet check because the turn bet implies a river bet and so is more likely to get a fold.

However buy checking the flop, you allow one more care to come.. maybe that puts a FD out there, maybe it connects with a high card, maybe it somehow gives viillian a set or 2 pair.

So by checking the flop you dont lose any value from the villians range but you do allow him to make some additional hands which he didnt have on the flop that might also pay 1-2 streets.

In addition to that he may decide to bluff. He is more likely to bluff after you check than when you bet.

I know what you are saying about a check sometimes being indicative of great strength.. but TBH if thats the case you are cbetting way too much and you are never checking back medium strength hands like AJ.

The problem with betting out when he cant really hold anything is that you lose value because you fold out pretty well everything he could have.

in some scenarios u can fold the nuts - on the bubble in a satelitte. If u have plenty of chips and have AA pre flop and u have to commit a lot of chips its easier to just won and win the ticket. Also when there is serious action in a PLO hand then u can correctly fold the nuts. If the flop is Qd Jd Ts and u have a bare AK with no redraws and two or more other people have gone allin then there is probably another AK out there plus a set and flush draw so u need to fade a ton of cards to get half the pot.

You are a favorite in most cases, but take a look at this:

nuts.jpg (http://www.cardschat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29255&d=1276499048)

As you can see, you are a favorite with the nut flush, but only 65%. Might not be as big a favorite as you think. If you want, you can use this calculator-it's here on Cardschat:

http://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-calculator.php

It's a useful tool I keep bookmarked.

Tons of people do this, they're called poor players